Author Topic: Concreting Drws Cefn  (Read 192191 times)

Online rhychydwr1

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1000 on: December 16, 2015, 11:20:05 pm »
I was starting to get withdrawl systems.  Not sure wether to see a doctor or take some Mogadon.  Until today the last posting was November 26.  But today there were 18 postings.  Thank you for saving my life.  Now will some philanthopic person please but a gate on the entrance.....

Offline crickleymal

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1001 on: December 17, 2015, 08:06:26 am »
I was starting to get withdrawl systems. 
Is that how you communicate with someone from the deep south?
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Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1002 on: December 17, 2015, 08:22:20 am »
Now will some philanthopic person please but a gate on the entrance.....

Do we know anybody with one going spare?

Offline Madness

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1003 on: December 17, 2015, 10:44:45 am »
Now will some philanthopic person please but a gate on the entrance.....

Will that satisfy all parties?

Online David Rose

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1004 on: December 17, 2015, 11:04:42 am »
I’ve just had a conversation with Peter Jones, who with a neighbour,  own the land on which both Drws Cefn and the original Ogof Draenen
entrance are situated. Their views are very clear, and they are not comforting to those of us who wish to see the CROW Act recognised as
covering access to caves. I apologise for not doing this sooner - I have been intensely busy. Without further comment, this is what he told
me:


‘We have had an agreement with the Pwll Ddu Cave Management Group for the past ten years, and we are happy for that to continue to be our
interface with the caving community.

‘Our understanding is that caves are not covered by the CROW Act, and that is a view shared by the NFU and NRW. Getting a solicitor’s letter
is not the way forward, and if it was intended, does not frighten us. The main entrance is on our land, and if the group that wants to open
Drws Cefn does not abide by the wishes of the PDCMG, and as we have stated to both the CCC and BCA previously we have no issue in closing
the main and other entrances to Ogof Draenen, with the result that the wider caving community will lose out.

'Our view is that opening this second entrance which has affected the local habitat including bat roosts, and could invite non experienced
cavers to enter due to the closeness of a local footpath is irresponsible. We do not want people going down Drws Cefn and disturbing the nature and character of Ogof Draenen. We think the reason they wish to do so is laziness – they don’t want to travel the extra hour each way to the further reaches of the cave involved by using the original entrance. It was also opened, using explosives, without our knowledge nor permission, and we see it as equivalent as
someone going into your back garden and doing the same.'

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1005 on: December 17, 2015, 11:10:10 am »
On behalf of everyone concerned, thank you David Rose for asking the question and posting the answer.

Online royfellows

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1006 on: December 17, 2015, 11:32:32 am »

Peter Jones stated:

"Our view is that opening this second entrance which has affected the local habitat including bat roosts, and could invite non experienced
cavers to enter due to the closeness of a local footpath is irresponsible. We do not want people going down Drws Cefn and disturbing the nature and character of Ogof Draenen. We think the reason they wish to do so is laziness – they don’t want to travel the extra hour each way to the further reaches of the cave involved by using the original entrance. It was also opened, using explosives, without our knowledge nor permission, and we see it as equivalent as
someone going into your back garden and doing the same."

Exactly Peter
This was in my view the big burning question. Different people will have different perspectives on things, this is Peter Jones perspective on a cave entrance situated on land which his company owns
Of course, ownership of land does not confer absolute rights in law in what you can do with it, which we are well aware of.

But the big question is now answered.
 :thumbsup:
Glad NAMHO 2019 over.

Offline Alex

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1007 on: December 17, 2015, 12:43:13 pm »
Aye thanks for the answer at least he won't be closing the cave right now anything and does not seem to be too concerned with legal action. However I can't help but think he has been misinformed, and some of what he has said is based on biased opinion given to him by those who want the entrance closed. Such as opening up due to laziness, is it just an hour? I thought it was opened up to improve exploration and to get around the arduous current access agreement?

I still think a gate with just a code lock or Derbyshire key would elevate his main issue of general public going in there. I don't know entirely, however I believe, he has been completely misinformed about conservation effects as the bats would not even be there if the entrance was not open? Keeping that entrance would help improve the bat population, giving them another roust site and another way in.

If the landowner was given an un-biased point of view and alternatives to closing it, I can't help thinking that closing the entrance would have been that imperative.
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline Alex

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1008 on: December 17, 2015, 01:31:10 pm »
Anyway having been convinced by others I now retract my statement about thinking legal action might be a good idea, it's not.
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Online royfellows

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1009 on: December 17, 2015, 01:56:55 pm »
I have finally come round to thinking that the CROW issue will only be finally settled by legal action although I recoil in horror at the thought of the final bill for this and who will pay!

I believe that a ball park for judicial review is about £30K

As far as Peter Jones is concerned, then misinformed or ill advised as may be, he must have genuine concerns or a desire 'to do the right thing' else he would adopt a could not care less attitude, "No skin off my nose" or whatever.
Glad NAMHO 2019 over.

Online Wayland Smith

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1010 on: December 17, 2015, 02:09:58 pm »
Many thanks to the people that have done work to clarify these two issues.
Even if the results are not what many wished for, at least there is some factual information.

It seems (I.M.H.O.) that the CROW issue has now defaulted to the original position.
After examining legal submission the bodies like National Resources Wales have publicly stated their view that CROW does not apply to caving.
Petty discussion on the semantics of the words "fresh air" are not going to change anything.
And solicitors letters have been dismissed.

Now any way forward would seem to be with national bodies like the B.C.A. lobbying for a change of law or guidance from parliament.
Although any action by B.C.A. seems to be very slow.
It appears that nothing will be resolved quickly.

Online Andyj23UK

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1011 on: December 17, 2015, 02:10:09 pm »
oh dear - while i am mindfull that this is a public forum that can be read by anyone .

i must tnank mr rose for his efforts in contacting the land owner - and the lad owner himself for replying to a 3rd party and permitting his reply to be published

BUT - what a clusterfuck

i have my own opinions of this farce - which i wount sully this post with -suffice to say - this snippet :

Quote
if the group that wants to open
Drws Cefn does not abide by the wishes of the PDCMG, 

confirms my suspicions

PS - has anyone else read the reply to mr rose and wondered ` - who actually wrote that ?

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1012 on: December 17, 2015, 02:24:58 pm »
If I was Peter Jones, and I had truly composed and written the reply we have read here, I would be mightily annoyed that anybody questioned my integrity.

Additionally, what on earth does it matter whose words they are, if they are the sincerely held wishes of the owners? That's what they believe and that's what we should accept, regardless of whose advice may or may not have been sought in reaching this opinion.

When I express my belief at a ballot poll, I do so not expecting my vote to be invalidated simply because I might have been misled by some politician in the weeks beforehand.

People's opinions should be respected regardless of how they are reached.

There is of course no harm whatsoever in persuading someone to change their opinion provided it is done respectfully, lawfully and without recourse to the courts.

Offline Rhys

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1013 on: December 17, 2015, 02:55:46 pm »
My reading of David Rose's post was that the words were David's transcription/interpretation of a verbal exchange he had with the landowner - not some pre-scripted statement. I guess David can clarify.

Will it dispell the conspiracy theories? I doubt it.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 03:20:10 pm by Rhys »

Online David Rose

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1014 on: December 17, 2015, 03:50:21 pm »
I spoke to Peter Jones, explaining I did not represent anyone, and that I wished to seek his opinion purely in order to post it here. I took notes, and then, as we had agreed, I emailed him my version of what he had said, so that he could be confident it accurately represented what he had said. I do this as a journalist very frequently with the sources of my articles.

He tweaked it very slightly, and the text here is exactly what he sent back.

I posted it in order to provide accurate information for the purposes of this debate. I have deliberately not expressed any view other than my comment that his words are not comforting to those of us who believe CROW should and in fact does apply to caves.

Online Wayland Smith

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1015 on: December 17, 2015, 03:53:42 pm »
Again thanks for the work in obtaining clarity. :clap2:

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1016 on: December 17, 2015, 04:40:55 pm »
Thank you to David for taking the time and trouble to do this  :)

Ian
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Online rhychydwr1

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1017 on: December 17, 2015, 04:48:50 pm »

[snip]
 I believe, he has been completely misinformed about conservation effects as the bats would not even be there if the entrance was not open? Keeping that entrance would help improve the bat population, giving them another roust site and another way in.

[snip]



Correct.  A fourth [?] entrance would encourage bats.  A declining species.  To close the entrance could invoke a fine of £5000 per bat.


Offline Brains

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1018 on: December 17, 2015, 05:00:54 pm »
Thinking of another site here, so off topic, but has anybody first hand experience of bat protection law being used against underground explorers?

Offline bograt

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1019 on: December 17, 2015, 05:03:32 pm »
Yes, well done and thanks David. :thumbsup:

Just to throw another fireball into the debate; I recently heard that the Welsh Assembly were considering adopting the Scottish pattern for open access, this does specifically include caving in the text----.
Aim low, achieve your goals, avoid disappointment

Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1020 on: December 17, 2015, 05:21:44 pm »

Offline Rhys

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1021 on: December 17, 2015, 06:54:29 pm »
I thought it was opened up to improve exploration and to get around the arduous current access agreement?

The what?


Offline Greg Jones

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1022 on: December 17, 2015, 07:23:43 pm »
Brains, in reply to your question. In the Forest of Dean there are several sites that are closed to cavers during the winter months, and a few that are closed permanently. This is to "protect" the bats. There are two prominent members of the Gloucestershire Bat Group who are attempting to have restrictions placed on many other sites in the Dean.
On the plus side, bat populations have also enabled us to stop the infilling of some mines, and has preserved access for cavers.
So you win some and you lose some.
Renegade!

Offline Brains

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1023 on: December 17, 2015, 08:41:11 pm »
Brains, in reply to your question. In the Forest of Dean there are several sites that are closed to cavers during the winter months, and a few that are closed permanently. This is to "protect" the bats. There are two prominent members of the Gloucestershire Bat Group who are attempting to have restrictions placed on many other sites in the Dean.
On the plus side, bat populations have also enabled us to stop the infilling of some mines, and has preserved access for cavers.
So you win some and you lose some.
Thanks for that - has anyone ignored the prohibitions and got a fine?

Online rhychydwr1

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Re: Concreting Drws Cefn
« Reply #1024 on: December 18, 2015, 10:29:48 am »
Thinking of another site here, so off topic, but has anybody first hand experience of bat protection law being used against underground explorers?

No, it is mainly developers bulldozing a barn that get fined.