Author Topic: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.  (Read 4586 times)

Online RichardB1983

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2017, 01:35:27 pm »
The deepest part of Ink Sump is at -14 m and this point is about 150 m from base.
 
Although the downstream end of Ink sump has no outflow in drought, there has always been a stream audible within the choke at the far side. This water may well flow into Ink Sump but flow out via an (as yet) undetected outlet before the downstream dive base, thus leaving the dive base static. (This is the same situation as happens in Far Sump, where the downstream end becomes static even though there is always an inflow into the upstream end.)

Therefore the facts (14 m deep, elbow 150 m in, a likely permanent inflow at upstream end) suggest that the idea of draining Ink Sump, to provide any sort of long term caver access, is perhaps somewhat ambitious.

If you could siphon out what is possible in drought conditions, it might reveal the location of the outlet. I wonder if it would be possible to construct a couple of dams to stop water flooding the rest of the sump and channel it towards the outflow? I'm sure it would be overwhelmed in flood, but might work in drought if the location of the inlet & outlet is favourable. 

Offline cooleycr

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2017, 01:53:18 pm »
If only somebody could actually make Marine Boy's "oxy-gum" then we could all go see for ourselves... :-\

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2017, 07:18:17 pm »
The deepest part of Ink Sump is at -14 m and this point is about 150 m from base.
 
Although the downstream end of Ink sump has no outflow in drought, there has always been a stream audible within the choke at the far side. This water may well flow into Ink Sump but flow out via an (as yet) undetected outlet before the downstream dive base, thus leaving the dive base static. (This is the same situation as happens in Far Sump, where the downstream end becomes static even though there is always an inflow into the upstream end.)

Therefore the facts (14 m deep, elbow 150 m in, a likely permanent inflow at upstream end) suggest that the idea of draining Ink Sump, to provide any sort of long term caver access, is perhaps somewhat ambitious.

If you could siphon out what is possible in drought conditions, it might reveal the location of the outlet. I wonder if it would be possible to construct a couple of dams to stop water flooding the rest of the sump and channel it towards the outflow? I'm sure it would be overwhelmed in flood, but might work in drought if the location of the inlet & outlet is favourable.

If the hypothesised outlet is capable of taking the base level flow then Ink Sump would regularly fall to that level in dry conditions (which, unlike Far Sump, it doesn't). It'd be great to be proved wrong but I think that reliably keeping Ink Sump empty for sustained periods, so non diving cavers could work beyond, would not be easy. Any system attempted MUST work flawlessly; you don't want to find your way back sealed by a sump pool rising malevolently inwards!

Incidentally those figures for the depth and position of the elbow of the sump are probably fairly accurate. Jim told me that their recent radio-location exercise showed the end of Ink Sump is pretty much where our survey showed it to be.

Offline Mike Wood

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2017, 12:26:47 am »
I was trying to work out whether you could run what I reckon wouldn't be far off 3km of armoured mains cable down to the Sump, but using this:
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Charts/VoltageDrop.html

suggests you need 16mm^2 cable which is pricey even to get 300W at the end. 3km would cost you £10k from here:
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Cable_Index/Armoured_SWA/index.html

which is a bit unreasonable. But I suspect you could get around this if you really wanted; you would just have to accept quite a bit less than 230V at the far end (if you managed to arrange getting 110V then you can use a standard 110->220V transformer!). If you built a set of step-up and step-down transformers, and didn't mind having a 2kV supply running through the cave :P and found some wire rated for the voltage, you could probably get a nice 13A supply down a fairly small bit of cable... if you could use 1.5mm^2 cable instead (which I reckon you could do even at 240V if you don't mind low voltage at the far end) then it's only £2000, which is admittedly still a fair whack of cash! But then you could hire out your cable to other clubs; how useful would a 240V supply at the coal face, as it were, be for digs everywhere? :)

Just throwing this out there... how much would it cost to drill a small borehole straight down to Dooms Retreat, and dangle the electric cable down it from the surface?  :smartass:

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2017, 08:21:08 am »
Do you mean financial or environmental cost . . . ?
Is it justified when Doom's Retreat is an easy 20 minute swim away?

The above is at least partly tongue in cheek; to be honest my view is we should let those folk currently involved in the project make decisions about the best way it should be progressed.  ;)

Online RichardB1983

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2017, 01:45:40 pm »
Radio location work done by Ron Hammond linking Endeavour to the surface has shown that the survey to Doom’s Retreat is very accurate by grid reference but was unable to pinpoint the depth of the chamber because of limited signal strength at long range.

Out of interest - is this location close to any known or likely workings on surface? It's meant to be close to Dirtlow Rake isn't it?

Offline pwhole

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2017, 02:00:15 pm »
The nearest section of Dirtlow Rake is the huge opencut just SW of How Grove mine.

Offline A_Northerner

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2017, 03:45:09 pm »
Pwhole is this Google Maps overlay freely available? If so would you be able to send me a copy?
In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. This time it WAS a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell...

Offline pwhole

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2017, 03:56:52 pm »
No it's not I'm afraid.

Offline Goydenman

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2017, 05:26:54 pm »
Thanks pwhole....interesting to see where Doom's retreat is in relation to surface

Offline pwhole

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2017, 05:46:55 pm »
All the cave locations are available as waypoints on the GoogleEarth file available here at the bottom of the page:

http://www.peakdistrictcaving.info/peak-district-caves.htm

Offline nickwilliams

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2017, 06:28:45 pm »

Just throwing this out there... how much would it cost to drill a small borehole straight down to Dooms Retreat, and dangle the electric cable down it from the surface?  :smartass:

I don't know what it cost, but this was done to 'prove' the accuracy of the survey before the tunnel into The Battlefield in White Scar was dug, and allowed lengths of household twin and earth cable to be used to power some big lights in the chamber from a generator on the surface.
"Economics is simply the branch of sociology that deals with people trading items and the fact that they use more numbers does not make it anymore of a science."

Offline Mike Wood

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2017, 06:33:24 pm »
Do you mean financial or environmental cost . . . ?
Is it justified when Doom's Retreat is an easy 20 minute swim away?

The above is at least partly tongue in cheek; to be honest my view is we should let those folk currently involved in the project make decisions about the best way it should be progressed.  ;)

I must admit I was only thinking of the financial cost... just weighing up the price of 3,000m of electrical cable versus the cost of a 2" borehole from surface + maybe 100m of electrical cable...  :-[

Offline MJenkinson

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2017, 08:52:49 am »
As an ex-geotech with some contacts in the drilling world, I could try and rustle up a small land rig and a couple of lads to smash out a swift hole!  Unfortunately it won't be big enough to get down. I also suspect it might cheese Jim off if he gets poked in the face by a drill bit suddenly appearing in Doom's Retreat!

Offline pwhole

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2017, 10:36:38 am »
Hope Cement had one up there on the other side of the road for a while. They're always interested in big holes ;)

Offline Mark

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2017, 11:22:30 am »
As an ex-geotech with some contacts in the drilling world, I could try and rustle up a small land rig and a couple of lads to smash out a swift hole!  Unfortunately it won't be big enough to get down. I also suspect it might cheese Jim off if he gets poked in the face by a drill bit suddenly appearing in Doom's Retreat!

He could really smarten his "shed" up though with a power supply.

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2017, 11:52:20 am »
A heater, A dehumidifier for drying his wet diving kit, a microwave, a kettle and a kitchen sink (with hot water from a small water boiler).

What do they say? As snug as a bug in a rug.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2017, 06:04:50 pm »
Any fool can be miserable . . .   ;)

Offline aquamole jim

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2017, 12:26:02 am »
Photo showing the new bits

Offline aquamole jim

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Re: Break through beyound Ink Sump, Peak Cavern.
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2017, 12:49:58 am »
There is a lot of work to do before the next big push later this year, however finding a none diving route in has always been one of the teams main objectives, so many people have helped it would be good to find a way in for them!!! The best bit about caving is sharing the experience with your friends old and new.
Every thing has been carefully planned for years! The present work is building on the endeavours of previous generations of cavers and will no doubt be continued by future generations, there's so much to go for!!!! It will keep us all busy for some time if it's not lost to Qurrying?  But that's another topic? People need jobs and cement. Ash and team in P8, Eddy, Nick and the Bull Pit team, the Phil and the TSG, at longcliffe, the Buttered Badgers at Rowter and Eldon Hole, the Crew at Pinndale, the Eldon at Baggshawe cavern the list goes on! Exciting times!!! :-)