Author Topic: Bull Pot Rigging  (Read 2907 times)

Offline Simon Wilson

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Bull Pot Rigging
« on: March 20, 2017, 11:44:02 am »
Last week I removed several loose anchors and placed two new ones on the entrance pitch of Bull Pot.

This provides a beautifully simple rigging using a 15m rope and one carabiner. It can be approached safely and there is a ledge which makes it a very easy take-off.




Offline ianball11

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2017, 11:51:44 am »
The deviation off the far wall was rather good fun.

That looks a nicely simple hang indeed, can you rethread the 2nd knot and use no metal bits?

Offline Antwan

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2017, 05:58:07 pm »
Thankyou Simon,

Can I just check for clarity, is the approach from the stream side now removed? Or are both options still useable?

Thanks again

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2017, 07:51:25 pm »
The upstream anchors have been removed.

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2017, 10:16:21 pm »
A new topo and descriptive guide to Bull Pot is now on the IC resin anchor website.

http://www.resinanchor.co.uk/6.html

Offline Alex

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2017, 10:32:04 pm »
Nevermind bull pot, finish off Car already :). Am willing to lend a hand as always, but don't have any of the bolting gear.
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline MarkS

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2017, 10:34:39 pm »
A new topo and descriptive guide to Bull Pot is now on the IC resin anchor website.

http://www.resinanchor.co.uk/6.html

Thanks for the update, Simon. Have some of the huge number of anchors at the top of the 4th pitch now been removed?

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2017, 10:49:00 pm »
The reason why there were so many anchors on the fourth pitch was that instead of removing loose anchors in the past, loose anchors had been augmented by having new anchors installed in-between. We removed the three loose anchors and installed one new one. The new one is one side of the Y hang at the end of the traverse. There are now two anchors fewer on the traverse.

Offline Cavematt

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2017, 08:23:06 am »
Thanks for all your efforts here Simon and for getting the new topo prepped so quickly.

Offline MarkS

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2017, 08:41:22 am »
The reason why there were so many anchors on the fourth pitch was that instead of removing loose anchors in the past, loose anchors had been augmented by having new anchors installed in-between. We removed the three loose anchors and installed one new one. The new one is one side of the Y hang at the end of the traverse. There are now two anchors fewer on the traverse.

 :thumbsup: I was intrigued by the alternating new/old anchors when I was there last. Thanks for getting it sorted.

Offline Ed

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2017, 01:21:34 pm »
there is some rope rub and some way of stayin clipped in until safe distance from the edge might of been handy...


Offline topcat

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2017, 07:42:50 pm »
there is some rope rub and some way of stayin clipped in until safe distance from the edge might of been handy...

Can't comment re rope rub (where exactly?) but there is a safe traverse from the natural on the R.  Ie, don't just use the two bolts.

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2017, 07:39:25 pm »
There is no rope rub if it's rigged as shown in the photo above. You have to adjust the loop lengths to avoid possible rub but that's normal for Y hangs.

The decision to radically alter the rigging on this pitch was not taken lightly and it was only done after a deal of consultation. Four anchors had to be removed because they were loose. One of our guiding principals is to keep the number of anchors to an absolute minimum and this new rigging fits in with that.

When deciding where to place anchors there are many things to consider and balance against each other. In this case one consideration is that it is one of the most popular caves for leaders taking novices and for relatively new cavers leading themselves. The rope can be attached to the first anchor with two feet on firm ground and the second anchor is within a short reach.

I'm quite happy with the anchors as they are but we are always open to discussion, suggestions and constructive criticism.

Simon Wilson, CNCC Anchor Coordinator.

Offline langcliffe

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2017, 07:47:04 pm »
There is no rope rub if it's rigged as shown in the photo above. You have to adjust the loop lengths to avoid possible rub but that's normal for Y hangs.

The decision to radically alter the rigging on this pitch was not taken lightly and it was only done after a deal of consultation. Four anchors had to be removed because they were loose. One of our guiding principals is to keep the number of anchors to an absolute minimum and this new rigging fits in with that.

When deciding where to place anchors there are many things to consider and balance against each other. In this case one consideration is that it is one of the most popular caves for leaders taking novices and for relatively new cavers leading themselves. The rope can be attached to the first anchor with two feet on firm ground and the second anchor is within a short reach.

I'm quite happy with the anchors as they are but we are always open to discussion, suggestions and constructive criticism.

Simon Wilson, CNCC Anchor Coordinator.

I would like to endorse what Simon says above.  I have never had problems with rope rub on this pitch, and when rigging for the less confident, I take a traverse line back to the bolts on the back wall. In my opinion, the new bolts are good, and a considerable improvement on the previous options.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 08:09:35 pm by langcliffe »

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2017, 09:11:44 pm »
The 1st pitch redirector was a great place for a photo and you had loads of time to take one as it could be a troublemaker!

Offline langcliffe

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2017, 09:58:04 pm »
The 1st pitch redirector was a great place for a photo and you had loads of time to take one as it could be a troublemaker!

 :lol:

Offline JoW

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2017, 08:24:11 am »

I would like to endorse what Simon says above.  I have never had problems with rope rub on this pitch, and when rigging for the less confident, I take a traverse line back to the bolts on the back wall. In my opinion, the new bolts are good, and a considerable improvement on the previous options.

The bolts on the back wall are no longer there...

Offline langcliffe

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2017, 08:52:15 am »
The bolts on the back wall are no longer there...

Thanks - I haven't been down since March, but I'm pretty sure that they were then. But as has been indicated elsewhere, there is always another way of skinning the proverbial.

Offline malcolm smith

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2017, 06:53:19 pm »
First time for me down Bull Pot since the changes in bolts. I found getting on the rope OK, getting off it less OK. Getting off I lurched onto the ledge on the other side from the bolts and sat down.  In doing so my chest jammer rode a bit too high and I could only unweight it by putting my foot loop jammer on the opposite y hang and stand in it leaning over the void. I didn't fancy stepping over the hole when free and edged off the pitch head upstream unprotected. The other two in our group did step over the drop with cowstails.  A slip, wouldn't have been nice dropping onto a cowstail from above.
It's a clean hang as it is now, but I found the previous bolting and rigging from it easier, especially getting off the rope. Not a complaint just a bit of feedback from a first time user of the new bolts. Many thanks to you guys who put these bolts in the caves mind!

Offline langcliffe

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2017, 07:40:16 pm »
First time for me down Bull Pot since the changes in bolts. I found getting on the rope OK, getting off it less OK. Getting off I lurched onto the ledge on the other side from the bolts and sat down.  In doing so my chest jammer rode a bit too high and I could only unweight it by putting my foot loop jammer on the opposite y hang and stand in it leaning over the void. I didn't fancy stepping over the hole when free and edged off the pitch head upstream unprotected. The other two in our group did step over the drop with cowstails.  A slip, wouldn't have been nice dropping onto a cowstail from above.
It's a clean hang as it is now, but I found the previous bolting and rigging from it easier, especially getting off the rope. Not a complaint just a bit of feedback from a first time user of the new bolts. Many thanks to you guys who put these bolts in the caves mind!

We were down there yesterday, and in view of the discussion above, I had a closer look at the rigging of the entrance pitch. It is possible to add a traverse line before the Y-hang, looping the rope (or a sling) over a boulder to the right of Simon's photograph.

As far as getting off at the top was concerned, I clipped in to the Y-hang, removed the chest ascender, stood up high on my foot pantin, stepped onto the ledge on the Y-hang side of the drop and then stepped across. One of my companions didn't have a pantin, so clipped in to the Y-hang, removed his chest ascender, swung his legs over to the ledge by the Y-hang, and sat down on the other side. He then just removed his foot ascender. I suspect that your problem was simply that you didn't remove your chest ascender as soon as you had clipped in.

I far prefer the new rigging...



Offline malcolm smith

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2017, 08:48:25 pm »
Thanks for that, you are a lot more experienced than me, mine was a far less experienced/competent way of doing it the first time, I'd managed fine with the old rigging. I'd be interested in how other folk, experienced and new to it find the pitch head which is a good cave for the less experienced. I'll try your way next time : )

Offline JasonC

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2017, 10:33:43 am »
Did it not long ago and don't recall any difficulties getting off, possibly because we rigged a traverse line as Langcliffe describes (though this does use up a fair bit of rope, so you need to allow a bit more than the official 15m).
It was a bit of a challenge to get a completely rub-free hang - in the end we managed with an asymmetric Y, hung off double krabs.  To be fair, if you hang it with a standard Y, the contact with the rock is only slight and I probably wouldn't have bothered trying to achieve perfection if I hadn't been on a rigging course :)

Offline Hammy

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2017, 08:26:49 pm »
I did the entrance pitch recently with a group of young SRT novices on their first underground experience of SRT.

Since I am trying to teach and develop good practice on the approach to pitches I chose to run a traverse rope from safe ground well to the left (SW)of the pitch starting from the drilled thread, with an intermediate anchor arranged on the two spits on the back wall to the recently installed IC resin anchors over the pitch. It was then a simple matter for the novices to approach, and take a comfortable seat while installing their descender on the rope. With a competent second person at the base of the pitch to manage the landing the novice cavers had no problems descending and reascending the pitch.

While we were there a group of experienced cavers arrived, and anxious to get on with their trip they rigged the ‘traditional’ descent just off the two spits, using the still existing ‘P’ anchor on the far wall as a deviation. Because the spits are low and the experienced cavers seemed unconcerned, there was considerable rope rub over the edge. Perhaps shortening the length of the deviation sling might just have prevented this, though giving a particularly awkward deviation to pass.

My observations above lead me to make the following comments and suggestions.

Bull Pot is a popular training cave and having the suggested rigging with the IC anchors so close to the edge makes it difficult to teach good practice.

Having the facility to rig the entrance pitch in two ways would be beneficial in such a popular venue.

Although an alternative rig is currently possible it would be preferable to have secure modern anchors rather than the two rather tired spits.

If it is decided that an alternative rig is unnecessary and contrary to current thinking regarding placement of BCA approved anchors, then it would be prudent to remove the existing ‘P’ anchor and fill in the spit sleeves to prevent poor and potentially dangerous rigging.

From a personal point of view it would be great to see the original arrangement of anchors replaced with IC anchors thus giving two possible descent routes, one with a deviation and giving an excellent daylight training venue.

Offline Rachel

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2017, 09:49:50 pm »
I agree with the previous poster that although the new bolts give a serviceable hang, it would be a good idea to have an alternative in place. On my last trip earlier this week, I found that there was already a group in the cave, so had to rig under the rope that was already there. It was doable but I would have preferred to be able to use a different spot. Since the deviation p bolt is still there, perhaps a couple of new bolts placed in the rock near the plaque would do it.

Offline Alex

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Re: Bull Pot Rigging
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2017, 09:59:02 pm »
We also had the issue of others rigging off there (two ropes already) and rigged off some bolts further back and used the devi to reduce the rope rub not perfect. On return with the other ropes gone, we found someone had moved our rope onto those two anchors. I am sure it was done with good intentions, but I thought it's not the done thing to mess with other peoples rigging?

Anyway it enabled us to test the new anchors and getting on and off. I found getting off easy, all you have to do is reach up and grab a hold of the rock at the top of the picture, then simply stand up. Like other's said you then have to edge away, however I did not feel at much of a risk of falling in.

Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)