Author Topic: Bakers Pit broken into again....  (Read 3047 times)

Offline Cartwright26

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Bakers Pit broken into again....
« on: August 10, 2017, 08:51:31 pm »
So afyer a bit of a stupid post by a group encouraging people to cut locks off of caves we have had two more locks cut from bakers pit..... here is a facebook post that ive copied..... do people not understand that conservation and protection is important?

**IMPORTANT NEWS PLEASE READ***

First Buckfastleighs beautiful show cave broken into and priceless fossils stolen in 2015 now the towns beaitiful Bakers Pit Cave system has now been broken into. This is for the 2nd time in a month so access to this cave is now via dart rock only!!! where only one key will be held.... if it continues a bat grate will be fitted and access removed completely.

Not only is it illegal and criminal damage to break the lock you are also breaking the law by forcing entry in a SSSI (Site of Special Scientific Interest)..... Devon and Cornwall police have been informed.
Below is part of an email from Roger Stuart King, of devon and cornwall underground council, sent to all (previous) keyholders.

Sometime, probably earlier this week or just before, someone opened the
Cave either with a key or perhaps by another method.

DSS informed me yesterday that the cave was open.

Joe this morning secured the cave with a padlock, the actual lock was
missing.

I will be arranging for a key to temporary lock to be available from
DartRock. as it has cost already over £100 to replace the 1st lock, I am
not intending to replace the lock until alterations have been made to
the gate
My apologies for any difficulties this may cause, apart from a rescue
key, there will be only one key, that key will have to be borrowed and
signed for from DartRock

If people can tell me when they last used the key that would be great
and any suggestions as to what happend to the lock would be
appreciated.  Joe, Bernard and I have wasted a great deal of time &
energy, not to mention the financial cost. We woulde not have access to
bakerspit were it not gated & locked. additionally DCRO is partially
funded from the key fees to the cavve.

I will keep you all informed of progress over this matter.

Regards,

Roger
Idiot seeks village

Offline Sam Richards

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2017, 10:15:06 pm »
Its good you were able to put a replacement lock on Joe, given how close Baker's Pit is to the town.
Was there any damage immediately obvious?

Offline Cartwright26

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2017, 10:37:51 am »
No sam apart from the lock missing completely however a new design is being fitted to prevent either bolt croppers or disc cutters being used there for taking a lot longer to cut then considering the landowner lives 50 mtrs away that should draw attention
Idiot seeks village

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2017, 12:16:55 pm »
Does Roger do caving, or does he just fuss about access?

Offline Cartwright26

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2017, 12:24:23 pm »
He still actively caves, has done longer than you ever will..... he puts alot of his own time in ensuring that our caves and sssi are protected from idiots and people with no idea about conservation.... keys are easy to get hold you just have to ask there is no weird secrecy to locations of holes unlike cornwall and ni secret to locations of keys....
Idiot seeks village

Offline Simond1989

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2017, 10:09:51 pm »
There the one who broke the locks the other night a dam shame and hope they get what is deserved names are Craig Burgess and Joe Payne if it locked it's locked ask permission don't ruin things for others

Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2017, 10:48:27 pm »
And what has Craig Martyn (with a Y) done for his sins ?

Offline Simond1989

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2017, 12:40:51 am »
Craig Martyn is Craig Burgess he changed his name on Facebook for some reason but is the same person

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2017, 06:30:37 am »
Now, while I do not condone breaking in, you may want to think about why it happened, and prevent a re-occurrence.
How easy is it for non-BCA members, or others not in the Club/BCA system to get the key, or info on how a key is obtained? A quick google shows me nothing. I couldn't tell you how I would go about getting a key.

Just sayin'...
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Offline mrodoc

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2017, 07:09:15 am »
There is never a problem getting a key.  The cave was locked as it is on private land and it was a condition of access. I have never had a problem visiting the cave in the last 50 years (my first trip was in there back in the mid 60's when it was at the bottom of a quarry used as landfill).  There have always been mavericks and  a burgeoning population means there are more about.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2017, 07:59:51 am »
Criminal damage is a police matter. Landowner or local caving council C&A rep can get the ball rolling easily.

Offline martinr

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2017, 10:06:00 am »
.....A quick google shows me nothing. I couldn't tell you how I would go about getting a key....

It took me less than a minute to find the info (a contact page) using google?

The first link was to a wiki page, the second to Pengelly Trust. Both sites have links for access. Admittedly, I didn't complete the contact form as I don't want to visit, so I can't say if submitting a request to the access officer would have been successful

Online NigR

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2017, 11:19:25 am »
The link suggested by martinr takes you to (surprise, surprise!) the Devon and Cornwall Underground Council's very own website. This is, without doubt, the worst and most useless website appertaining to (supposedly!) providing cave access that I have ever seen. There is no mention of any specific cave whatsoever, only a generic query form for you to send to some (unnamed) access officer in the hope that you might eventually get a response. Is this site purposefully designed to put people off applying for access? If so, it is doing a fine job.

Also, is there (or has there ever been) any information displayed (signs etc) at the cave entrance itself explaining how access can be obtained?

Offline martinr

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2017, 12:35:51 pm »
.......only a generic query form for you to send to some (unnamed) access officer in the hope that you might eventually get a response. Is this site purposefully designed to put people off applying for access? If so, it is doing a fine job.

I didn't say the method worked, only that I'd found the contact page without any dificulty.

Someone needs to test the contact form to see if it works?

edit: nigr also said " [a] form for you to send to some (unnamed) access officer ". The website gives the name of the Access Officer as Roger King (Committee for 2015/2016 – Elected at the AGM at Liskeard Town Hall on Monday 23rd February 2015). That may or may not be up to date, but it is a name

« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 12:53:27 pm by martinr »

Offline martinr

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2017, 01:42:37 pm »
.......only a generic query form for you to send to some (unnamed) access officer in the hope that you might eventually get a response. Is this site purposefully designed to put people off applying for access? If so, it is doing a fine job.

.....

Someone needs to test the contact form to see if it works?

.....

So, I completed the Contact form at 11:40

I received a full reply at 13:15, from Roger King, which I paraphrase here:

He states that the cave is locked at the request of the landowner, and a revised access procedure is in place after  two locks were removed by persons unknown since the beginning of July. He explains where to obtain the key between 10am and 10pm and offers to make the key available direct from him outside these hours or from one of 20 other keyholders. . Clubs/groups can have their own key for a fee. (Subject to the revised access arrangement currently in place)

QED

Offline ZombieCake

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2017, 01:58:06 pm »
I e-mailed the librarian at Pengelly a couple of days or so ago from their contact page and got a bounce back saying the e-mail address wasn't actually valid.  Forwarded to another one from the list (info@...) and that seemed to work (well didn't get a bounce back) so will hopefully get a reply in due course.

Online NigR

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2017, 02:06:57 pm »
martinr:

Well done, but it seems somewhat silly completing the Contact form if, as you have already stated, you "don't want to visit" the cave. Did you mention that this was a "test" and that the results would be posted on a national caving forum?


Also, could someone please answer my previous query as to whether information concerning access is (and always has been) readily available on site?

Offline Roger W

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2017, 02:11:59 pm »
Nig,

I see where you are coming from, but are you sure that being a "caver" or "urban explorer" or whatever gives you the right to go anywhere you please on other people's property, cutting off locks in order to do so?
"That, of course, is the dangerous part about caves:  you don't know how far they go back, sometimes... or what is waiting for you inside."   JRR Tolkein: "The Hobbit"

Online NigR

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2017, 03:23:58 pm »
Roger,

You have badly misinterpreted my words if, as you say, you think this is "where I am coming from". Naturally, that is disappointing to me but it is also very surprising as your comments are usually much more astute than this.

Of course I am not saying what you are suggesting I am saying and, quite frankly, I am astonished that you think I am. (Are you sure it is you and not one of several possible past members of this forum who is logged into your account?).

What I am trying to do is look for any possible reasons why these events have taken place and how such events can be prevented from happening in the future. Believe me, I have no personal axe whatsoever to grind in this particular case, just like martinr I have no interest at all in visiting the cave. However, having locks ripped off right, left and centre does nobody any good at all, including those of us seeking to extend access opportunities within other caving regions.

Now do you see where I'm coming from?


Offline Roger W

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2017, 05:07:11 pm »
Sorry if I misunderstood you, Nig.  Please forgive me.

I can see why people might have problems when they find a cave or mine with a padlocked gate and nothing to tell them how or where to find out how they can get in.  Some sort of notice or sign telling them who to contact would, I'm sure, be a good idea.  That's where I thought you were coming from.

But I have got the impression from many posts on this forum over the years that some people seem do seem to think they have a right to go anywhere they please and that locks and gates are simply there as challenges to be overcome  - whether they are there courtesy of the MOD or simply to stop kiddies from the nearby housing estate from wandering in and getting lost.  And that's the impression - right or wrong - that I had got of the miscreants mentioned further up the thread.

"That, of course, is the dangerous part about caves:  you don't know how far they go back, sometimes... or what is waiting for you inside."   JRR Tolkein: "The Hobbit"

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2017, 05:46:43 pm »
Some sort of notice or sign telling them who to contact would, I'm sure, be a good idea.  That's where I thought you were coming from.

This is what I was wondering about. Lock-chopping tends to be a last resort rather than a first response.
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Offline martinr

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2017, 06:00:00 pm »
martinr:

Well done, but it seems somewhat silly completing the Contact form if, as you have already stated, you "don't want to visit" the cave. Did you mention that this was a "test" and that the results would be posted on a national caving forum?


Also, could someone please answer my previous query as to whether information concerning access is (and always has been) readily available on site?

I did not mention this was a test
I did not mention the result would be posted (and I have not posted the actual email, just a precis)

I did say I wanted to challenge an assertion made on UKCaving that it's not easy to make an official visit to Bakers Pit because access conditions are not well known or easy to find . I did not mention I was a caver or  that I was from any club, although they might well have guessed that I am?

The answer I received was adequate, it shows the system works. That's my final word on this matter

(edited to clarify what I asked)

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2017, 06:27:43 pm »
Well, obviously it doesn't work if locks *keep* going missing (Before any of you with a sense of humour failure get uppity - I'm in a completely different country, I haven't removed any locks).

You seem to forget - We're all "plugged in" to the network. Given that I couldn't find a way to get a key, how do you think someone less familiar with the systems that generally get you access would fare?
Deep Dark Dirty Wet Holes - The Right honourable Lock Persuader in Chief.

Offline mrodoc

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2017, 07:56:03 pm »
I managed to sort out the key 50 years ago when I was a schoolboy and not caving with a club so nowadays amount with an ounce of initiative should be able to locate a key. Idiots who break into caves just cause problems for the rest of us.

Offline robjones

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Re: Bakers Pit broken into again....
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2017, 09:02:20 pm »
... some people seem do seem to think they have a right to go anywhere they please and that locks and gates are simply there as challenges to be overcome...

The late Bob Lewis, a Bristol caver, articulated something akin to this philosophy in a letter to Descent in 1985 (no.62, p.37) in which he wrote 'It can be great fun gaining access to a "forbidden" system'. I encountered him only once, when I was staying as a guest at the old Cerberus cottage and one of the Fairy Cave Quarry cave entrances was attempted to be broken into in the wee hours of the night (reports: Descent no.63, p.7; and no.65, p.34) but the circumstances were not conducive to a multi-sided discussion on his access philosophy. I recall that his obituary in Descent made muted reference to his access philosophy but it post-dates published Descent indexes and I cannot readily locate it.