Author Topic: Pantin Technique  (Read 2054 times)

Offline JasonC

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2018, 02:48:54 pm »
... when I weight the croll, it causes the cam to remain open....and slips. ...
I've had the croll looked at and there's nowt wrong with it....I now just put it down to crap technique.

Has anyone else experienced this?

Yes - but only when I'd inadvertently put the croll on the wrong way round, so that it rested at right-angles to my chest rather than flat.  Somebody pointed it out, but I thought "don't fuss, it'll be reet", but it wasn't really...  There's a lesson there, somewhere ;)

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2018, 03:09:50 pm »
I think there is a possibilty that some people struggle because they are not using a pantin on the best foot. Other people might not completely agree with this. I think you need to first ask yourself the question, which is my strongest foot? If you were prusicking with one leg, which leg would it be? If you answer, the right foot, then you need to buy a left foot Pantin and put it on your left foot.

That's what I did and I took to it straight away. I had a bit of joint trouble with my left ankle so I thought I'd try the other foot and I bought a right foot Pantin. I gave it a good go over quite a few caving trips but I was never anywhere near as happy as with a Pantin on my left foot and felt that I would never fully master it.

Maybe other people are happy with whatever Pantin they start with, maybe some people don't favour one leg as much and maybe some people can use a Pantin on either foot - I don't know.

Offline pwhole

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2018, 03:42:30 pm »
I'm 'right-footed', and never got on with the Pantin there, so bought a left and never looked back. I think your strongest leg should always be in the footloop. Just to confuse matters on straps, when I bought a replacement 'old style' strap, I found out that Petzl only supplied 'right' versions. So on both of my current Pantins the straps are on backwards, though it still works the same. And as Alastair mentioned, it's always on the inside of the foot, with the cam facing backwards.

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2018, 03:51:52 pm »
I'm 'right-footed', and never got on with the Pantin there, so bought a left and never looked back. I think your strongest leg should always be in the footloop. Just to confuse matters on straps, when I bought a replacement 'old style' strap, I found out that Petzl only supplied 'right' versions. So on both of my current Pantins the straps are on backwards, though it still works the same. And as Alastair mentioned, it's always on the inside of the foot, with the cam facing backwards.

Since most people are right footed, if most people prefer a Pantin on the other foot then I would expect Petzl to sell more left foot Pantins and replacement straps. Do most people prefer a Pantin on the opposite foot to their leading foot? Which side Pantin sells most?

Offline pwhole

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2018, 04:13:47 pm »
Weirdly, Petzl used to advise against using a left-footed Pantin if you were right-handed, as it could make passing rebelays more difficult, though I still struggle to see how. Their explanation of the 'problem' was baffling, but I thought maybe it lost a little in the translation.

And how come no-one ever makes a left-handed chest ascender, while we're at it? All the other bits of ascending kit have both options. It seems a bit unfair on left-handers that's all, as undoing your chest ascender can be a rather important operation! Any left-handers find it a problem?

Offline Mike Hopley

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2018, 04:55:25 pm »
Weirdly, Petzl used to advise against using a left-footed Pantin if you were right-handed, as it could make passing rebelays more difficult, though I still struggle to see how. Their explanation of the 'problem' was baffling, but I thought maybe it lost a little in the translation.

The theory is that your footloop and safety cord should be "on the same side" -- so if your safety cord is to the left of your chest jammer, your footloop should go on your left leg.

The "standard" French setup puts cowstails on the left, and uses the long cowstail as the safety cord. If the footloop is then on the right foot, they say the footloop "crosses the rope" at rebelays. Their recommendation is then to use two separate cowstails, with the long cowstail on the right (and threaded through the harness closure, to keep it away from the chest jammer).

I have to confess I have never quite understood this. I find it very hard to visualise the problem. Maybe I should just try it and see.

I think what they're getting at is that you should be able to pass rebelays without removing your foot from the footloop, and without removing your safety cord from the jammer. But it seems to me you can do this anyway. :shrug:


Offline pwhole

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2018, 06:24:42 pm »
Ah right - I see. They do seem to make it more confusing than necessary. In my book, cowstails are cowstails, and not to be used 'part time' as an ascender link - I usually need both of them. I always use a separate dynamic rope link to my hand jammer, on the right, with a steel krab attached for no damage when clipping to plate anchors, so effectively have three cowstails (four if you include the short loop between my two main ones!), and never have any problems passing rebelays - the Pantin is usually the last thing to come off, as it's so handy to stand on whilst sorting everything else out. I guess they're just tight with their rope!

Offline Mike Hopley

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2018, 06:44:35 pm »
Quote
Ah right - I see. They do seem to make it more confusing than necessary. In my book, cowstails are cowstails, and not to be used 'part time' as an ascender link - I usually need both of them.

Eh, there are pros & cons of both approaches. The French would argue that having fewer cords is simpler, and the long cowstail isn't doing anything when you're ascending. Brits will argue that having the extra cowstail simplifies things like getting off the pitch head.

In my experience, people tend to confuse "familiar" with "simple", and "unfamiliar" with "confusing". That's not a dig at anyone, just a general observation! It can be surprisingly hard to distance oneself from the familiar.

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2018, 06:59:48 pm »
All this talk, I actually can't remember which foot I use my pantin on!

Offline Madness

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2018, 08:04:43 pm »
I’ve got a green Pantin. It’s for my right foot.

I think we may have a solution to your problem!

I think we have!

I've just cleaned my gear and there is a little man on the Pantin showing it fitted to the RIGHT foot. I never noticed that before.

What a plonker I am!

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2018, 08:12:08 pm »
You must read and understand all the instructions for use, and get specific instruction in its use, before using it. So say Petzl; it's on the technical sheet, first page, can't miss it.

Offline AR

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2018, 08:54:13 pm »
I once made the mistake of putting my right-foot pantin on the left foot, then on starting the ascent finding it kept coming off. Unfortunately, I worked this out 30ft up the Knotlow engine shaft so had the choice of swapping it to the right foot mid-air and risking dropping it into the sump, doing a mid-rope changeover and going back down to change over, or two-foot frogging to the top. Frogging won....
Dirty old mines need love too....

Offline pwhole

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2018, 09:29:37 pm »
Putting on a Pantin whilst on a rope is probably wonderful exercise, but miserable at the time. I once spent a good five minutes slowly swinging back and forth on the first proper pitch up Block Hall in Speedwell after forgetting to put it on, trying to contort myself enough to fasten my (backward) straps, with my climbing partner chortling away below. I was completely exhausted by the time I finally got it on, and had to have a sit down.

Offline Fulk

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2018, 10:55:19 pm »
Hi, Chocolate fireguard, I noticed that you mentioned tandemming on here (in passing). I wonder how many cavers do, in fact, tandem pitches in Britain (I believe that it's not uncommon in the USA)?

(Maybe this should be a new thread.)

Offline Rachel

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2018, 05:16:29 am »
I have a gold one..it's left footed.

I originally bought a right and just couldn't get on with it no matter how much I practised, but as soon as I swapped to a left, I was away.

Hey Rachel,
The right one is still going strong  ;D

Lol, so's the left but I don't think it's clocked up quite the same mileage!

Offline Chocolate fireguard

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2018, 09:01:51 am »
Hi, Chocolate fireguard, I noticed that you mentioned tandemming on here (in passing). I wonder how many cavers do, in fact, tandem pitches in Britain (I believe that it's not uncommon in the USA)?

(Maybe this should be a new thread.)
I don't think there are many pitches big enough to make it worthwhile.
I have done it a couple of times on the top half of Titan and once on the entrance pitch, but both times it was really so 2 people could warm up a bit!
Once on a Whalfe trip we had somebody who insisted on going out up the engine shaft, although she wasn't really up to it (feet swinging wildly out at each step, making only a few inches progress each time, it took ages for her even to get into the shaft proper) so I went up and arranged her footloop between her and the pitch rope with one foot each side of the rope, and then the tensioned rope kept her feet in the right position. Getting off at the top was the hard bit.

I was told that when they do it in the USA only one person climbs while the other rests.

Offline Mark Wright

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2018, 09:26:25 am »
Hi, Chocolate fireguard, I noticed that you mentioned tandemming on here (in passing). I wonder how many cavers do, in fact, tandem pitches in Britain (I believe that it's not uncommon in the USA)?

(Maybe this should be a new thread.)
I don't think there are many pitches big enough to make it worthwhile.
I have done it a couple of times on the top half of Titan and once on the entrance pitch, but both times it was really so 2 people could warm up a bit!
Once on a Whalfe trip we had somebody who insisted on going out up the engine shaft, although she wasn't really up to it (feet swinging wildly out at each step, making only a few inches progress each time, it took ages for her even to get into the shaft proper) so I went up and arranged her footloop between her and the pitch rope with one foot each side of the rope, and then the tensioned rope kept her feet in the right position. Getting off at the top was the hard bit.

I was told that when they do it in the USA only one person climbs while the other rests.

Rowter Hole entrance shaft is plenty big enough to justify having two people on the rope at the same time. Its got plenty of re-belays now so no real need but back in the 80's I regularly climbed the pitch with TWO other people. 1st and 3rd climbing while the 2nd rests and vice versa.

Mark

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2018, 10:09:44 am »
You must read and understand all the instructions for use, and get specific instruction in its use, before using it. So say Petzl; it's on the technical sheet, first page, can't miss it.

When the Pantin first came out this is exactly what I did. I've never tried such a numb technique in my life. I sold on the (little used) right foot Pantin then bought a left foot Pantin. I chucked the instructions in the recycling bin and worked it out for myself. Never had any bother since.

(Note - the Pantin is not a safety critical item; I'd not necessarily advocate the above approach with other components of my SRT rig.)

Offline MarkS

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2018, 10:57:32 am »
Weirdly, Petzl used to advise against using a left-footed Pantin if you were right-handed, as it could make passing rebelays more difficult, though I still struggle to see how. Their explanation of the 'problem' was baffling, but I thought maybe it lost a little in the translation.

The theory is that your footloop and safety cord should be "on the same side" -- so if your safety cord is to the left of your chest jammer, your footloop should go on your left leg.

The "standard" French setup puts cowstails on the left, and uses the long cowstail as the safety cord. If the footloop is then on the right foot, they say the footloop "crosses the rope" at rebelays. Their recommendation is then to use two separate cowstails, with the long cowstail on the right (and threaded through the harness closure, to keep it away from the chest jammer).

I have to confess I have never quite understood this. I find it very hard to visualise the problem. Maybe I should just try it and see.

I think what they're getting at is that you should be able to pass rebelays without removing your foot from the footloop, and without removing your safety cord from the jammer. But it seems to me you can do this anyway. :shrug:

If your safety cord (be it a separate one or a cowstail) is to the left of your chest ascender, and you put your right foot in the foot loop the  safety cord - hand ascender - foot loop combination makes a closed loop around the rope you are climbing, hence the (slight) added complication passing rebelays. This is very noticeable if you use a chicken/snoopy loop to keep your footloop attached to your foot.

In a nutshell, things are less likely to get tangled if your safety cord is on the opposite side to your Pantin.

Offline Mike Hopley

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2018, 11:34:28 am »
Quote
If your safety cord (be it a separate one or a cowstail) is to the left of your chest ascender, and you put your right foot in the foot loop the  safety cord - hand ascender - foot loop combination makes a closed loop around the rope you are climbing, hence the (slight) added complication passing rebelays. This is very noticeable if you use a chicken/snoopy loop to keep your footloop attached to your foot.

Yes, that's what I thought the issue was -- but every time I try to imagine it in my head, it seems you are fine providing you pass the rebelay rope into your chest jammer from "underneath" the hand jammer/cowstails. Because it's not actually a closed loop, is it? To make a closed loop, you'd have to connect the end of your footloop to the cowstail attachment knot. ;)

I think I might just be failing to imagine it correctly, hence the need to try it out and see.

Offline Chocolate fireguard

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2018, 03:05:25 pm »
Hi, Chocolate fireguard, I noticed that you mentioned tandemming on here (in passing). I wonder how many cavers do, in fact, tandem pitches in Britain (I believe that it's not uncommon in the USA)?

(Maybe this should be a new thread.)
I don't think there are many pitches big enough to make it worthwhile.
I have done it a couple of times on the top half of Titan and once on the entrance pitch, but both times it was really so 2 people could warm up a bit!
Once on a Whalfe trip we had somebody who insisted on going out up the engine shaft, although she wasn't really up to it (feet swinging wildly out at each step, making only a few inches progress each time, it took ages for her even to get into the shaft proper) so I went up and arranged her footloop between her and the pitch rope with one foot each side of the rope, and then the tensioned rope kept her feet in the right position. Getting off at the top was the hard bit.

I was told that when they do it in the USA only one person climbs while the other rests.

Rowter Hole entrance shaft is plenty big enough to justify having two people on the rope at the same time. Its got plenty of re-belays now so no real need but back in the 80's I regularly climbed the pitch with TWO other people. 1st and 3rd climbing while the 2nd rests and vice versa.

Mark

If you want to speed things up significantly by having two people on the rope at the same time then they both need to climb at the same time.
Alternating climbing & resting will not save any time unless those people would normally rest at intervals on that pitch, and I am sure that most SRT cavers who habitually do big pitches pace themselves to do them in one go - apart from anything else it's depressing if you have to stop part way up a pitch because you are knackered.
This seems to me only to be justified if the pitch length is much greater than anything found in UK caves, and even fit cavers would need to rest, so I doubt that having 2 people on the rope on a 70m pitch would save time unless they were willing repeatedly to exhaust themselves between rests. Or climb together of course.
But of course, there are not many big pitches now without rebelays.

Now 3 people is different, and could consistently deliver 3 people to the top in the time that it would normally take 2, even with rests.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 03:20:09 pm by Chocolate fireguard »

Offline Mark Wright

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2018, 04:11:03 pm »
I don't think we did 3 on a rope to speed things up, it was more for fun and to save 2 people having to wait a long time in the cold.

Mark

Offline Fulk

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2018, 04:30:21 pm »
I recall an evening trip down Lost Johns’/John’s (?) when it was getting late and we were in a hurry to get out. My teen-aged step-daughter had gone up the Centipede Pitch and I suggested to my wife that we tandem it to speed things up. So we did, with me going first. When I reached the top I called down ‘rope free’, and shortly after Miranda called out ‘rope free’. ‘Bloody hell, Mum’, said step-daughter, who was still within ear shot, ‘You got up there pretty quick’.

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2018, 08:15:57 pm »
I recall an evening trip down Lost Johns’/John’s (?) when it was getting late and we were in a hurry to get out. My teen-aged step-daughter had gone up the Centipede Pitch and I suggested to my wife that we tandem it to speed things up. So we did, with me going first. When I reached the top I called down ‘rope free’, and shortly after Miranda called out ‘rope free’. ‘Bloody hell, Mum’, said step-daughter, who was still within ear shot, ‘You got up there pretty quick’.

 :clap2:

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Pantin Technique
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2018, 08:51:30 pm »
Well I use a right hand ascender and a right pantin, which works fine as long as you pass the ascender behind (?) the rope at rebelays...

I also once put my pantin on the outside, rather than the inside, of my for - which is uncomfortable and doesn't work very well!

And when I tried climbing a partially loaded rope I found my pantin kept coming off and interfering with my donkey dick.