Henri Brenot and Monkeys

moletta

Member
I looked these ascenders up, so I know what they are. They came into use in the 30's.

What I'd like to know is how the French cavers descended at that time.

Anyone know off hand?

 

mikem

Well-known member
Seems descendeurs didn't come in until the 1940s, before that they were lowered on ropes, or did classic abseils:
https://www.outdoorgearcoach.co.uk/innovation-history/pierre-allain-innovator-extraordinaire/

May be something more in here:
https://www.outdoorgearcoach.co.uk/history-of-outdoor-gear-links/

Carabiner brakes & Italian hitch don't seem to have become popular until 1960s:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2931481/Who-Popularized-The-Carabiner-Brake-Rappel

Similar discussion from the US (with sketches of the Monkeys):
http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15817

Mike
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
moletta said:
I looked these ascenders up, so I know what they are. They came into use in the 30's.

What I'd like to know is how the French cavers descended at that time.

Anyone know off hand?

Chevalier simply refers to descending by rappel. They were climbers at the time and the pitches weren't overhanging, so I suspect that they used a body abseil such as the highly uncomfortable d?lfersitz.
 

moletta

Member
Thanks.
I think the lower or abseil seem the most likely before WW2, although I do wonder if some people are sliding down the rope hand over hand.
 

Kenilworth

New member
moletta said:
Thanks.
I think the lower or abseil seem the most likely before WW2, although I do wonder if some people are sliding down the rope hand over hand.

Surely some people were. Despite being acquainted with alpine climbing techniques, Casteret writes of descending 85 feet hand over hand "quickly to avoid tremors and fatigue," of course ascending the same way. This in the twenties and thirties. I would imagine some of Chevaliers' gang did the same on the many short pitches.

 

ZombieCake

Well-known member
Winches were also widely used, especially for the Pierre St Martin (various writings about the Marcel Loubens tragedy), various good reads are:
Subterranean Climbers by Pierre Chevalier
Memoirs of a Speleologist by Robert de Joly
Caves of Adventure by Haroun Tazieff
Men of the Pierre St Martin by Jacques Attout
and of course anything by Norbert Casteret

 

Kenilworth

New member
langcliffe said:
moletta said:
Casteret was on a different level!

and very prone to poetic licence. Pierre Chevalier, on the other hand, was the master of the understatement.

Yes, I much prefer to read Chevalier, though your assessment of his style might have been borrowed from Waltham's liner notes. I suspect Castaret of far more than poetic licence, but it seems like he was in fact a pretty tough fellow.
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
Kenilworth said:
... though your assessment of his style might have been borrowed from Waltham's liner notes.

It's actually my assessment, and I don't know what "Waltham's liner notes" is referring to. Subterranean Climbers has been a favourite caving book of mine for over 50 years,  way back when Tony was still a student.
 

Kenilworth

New member
langcliffe said:
Kenilworth said:
... though your assessment of his style might have been borrowed from Waltham's liner notes.

It's actually my assessment, and I don't know what "Waltham's liner notes" is referring to. Subterranean Climbers has been a favourite caving book of mine for over 50 years,  way back when Tony was still a student.

Fair enough, I'm sorry. My copy of S.C. has a review by Tony on the reverse or inside cover and he makes an identical remark. It is my favorite caving book too.

moletta said:
''I suspect Castaret of far more than poetic licence''

Curious about this.

Outright fabrication. Caves inspire exaggeration and so there are an enormous mass of written and spoken legends with no truth to them at all. Much of what Castaret has written has the familiar ring of bullshit.

This is my suspicion. I am unaware of any known examples of confirmed untruth. I have often thought that it would be a very enjoyable project to re-trace his steps, making accurate observations along the way and comparing his descriptions to real life. Despite my distrust of his stories, (to go completely off-topic) I do find Ten Years inspiring for a couple of reasons. For one thing Castaret was a self-motivated explorer. For another his passion included his family. The photographs of he and his wife and mother, posing with picks on a mountainside, or of his wife swimming naked in a freezing pool, are my favorite parts of the book. I think that it is an act of infidelity to invest a very large amount of time in anything without mutual or supporting interest or involvement of one's family.

 

moletta

Member
''Outright fabrication. Caves inspire exaggeration and so there are an enormous mass of written and spoken legends with no truth to them at all. Much of what Castaret has written has the familiar ring of bullshit.''

There's a thought to conjure with. If he was economical with the truth, was it how he felt,  or a style of writing in France  at the time? People from the link seemed to have been there, what was different?
 

Kenilworth

New member
moletta said:
''Outright fabrication. Caves inspire exaggeration and so there are an enormous mass of written and spoken legends with no truth to them at all. Much of what Castaret has written has the familiar ring of bullshit.''

There's a thought to conjure with. If he was economical with the truth, was it how he felt,  or a style of writing in France  at the time? People from the link seemed to have been there, what was different?

Have you read anything by Castaret? He was a flamboyant writer, ambitious and egomaniacal. I haven't looked at the link and don't know what particular passage is in question, but I could fill pages with questionable accounts from Ten Years.
 
Aggandisement of the value of speleology and its exponents may well have been common in France, but Primitive Hearths in the Pyrenees was written not long after Casteret's exploration, so the feeling of exaggeration is not new - among Americans, at least. Here's the relevant chapter, The Montespan Quarrel: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015062214328;view=1up;seq=272
 

ZombieCake

Well-known member
Casteret may or may not have been a bit colourful - his books probably weren't designed to be dry scientific journals. Certainly inspired my imagination to go caving and I daresay many others too.
If you just happen to be passing the French / Spanish border in the Pyrenness (as you do) Grotte Casteret is easy to stumble upon - hang a left from the Breche  de Roland and look for the big cavey thing. Nice place to chill out (not least because it's bloomin' freezing!).
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
ZombieCake said:
If you just happen to be passing the French / Spanish border in the Pyrenness (as you do) Grotte Casteret is easy to stumble upon - hang a left from the Breche  de Roland and look for the big cavey thing. Nice place to chill out (not least because it's bloomin' freezing!).

Can't just wander in these days. Access is controlled by the Ordesa y Monte Perdido National Park authorities. A barrier has been erected within the main entrance, and a sign prohibits access to the casual visitor. Two groups of up to 6 cavers, are allowed access for a maximum of four days per month. It's also losing ice rapidly.
 
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