Author Topic: Metal Steps KMC  (Read 8992 times)

Offline Inferus

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2018, 07:20:14 pm »
why ? - because someone thinks they're needed or useful
you presumably don't

in the same way that most people think P Bolts are useful and others don't
As per previous posts that have suggested similar; they've not been needed for decades, so why now? Is it now open season for anyone to install whatever they like, anywhere they please, just because something is a tiny bit tricky?  :shrug:
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Offline langcliffe

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2018, 07:28:36 pm »
As per previous posts that have suggested similar; they've not been needed for decades, so why now? Is it now open season for anyone to install whatever they like, anywhere they please, just because something is a tiny bit tricky?  :shrug:

They are incredibly unsightly. I suspect that unless someone comes up with a good reason for them being there, they won't last long.

Offline Wayland Smith

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2018, 07:33:11 pm »
Are there any commercial operators using the system? I would be asking there.

Offline Wolfo

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2018, 07:37:19 pm »
Are there any commercial operators using the system? I would be asking there.

Those kicks are know (at least here in Germany) from the mining business, but are out of use since decades.
Much thicker material and deeper holes of cause.

As for me, no commercial use today.
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Offline Simon Beck

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2018, 07:42:26 pm »
If these aids (or at least some) have been there for as long as some folk are claiming, possibly a year, why haven't the obvious suspects come forward and disassociated themselves from the act before word got out. I find it hard to believe this has gone unnoticed by those I speak of. 

Offline langcliffe

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2018, 07:59:33 pm »
If these aids (or at least some) have been there for as long as some folk are claiming, possibly a year, why haven't the obvious suspects come forward and disassociated themselves from the act before word got out. I find it hard to believe this has gone unnoticed by those I speak of.

I don't think that they have been there for that long. Alex thinks he remembers something at the climb that has been there for some time, but I haven't seen anything there other than a couple of bolts. I last went through KMC on May 23rd, and I am reasonably sure that at least one of the two of us would have spotted them if they were in place then - they certainly shouted out to me on Saturday.

I can't be certain, though.

Offline Balmerfish

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2018, 12:14:49 am »
Forgive my questioning but are they a 'product'?  or a bent bit of rebar and resin anchored in?  Are they inox, mild, another steel or some other alloy?

Ian-

Ok i will try to answer best i can - they looked like bits of rebar that that been shaped and put in place using resin. They looked like they had bits of white plastic on them, which we saw other evidence of. I could be wrong on that , i was viewing from below.  There are similar to stuff ive seen used in the mines.  Thats the extent of my metal steps knowledge :)

It is completely possible that they have been hear since before July and i just didnt spot them.
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Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2018, 10:06:11 am »
why ? - because someone thinks they're needed or useful
you presumably don't

in the same way that most people think P Bolts are useful and others don't

Are you saying that there are people who don't approve of the anchor scheme? Would you like to enlarge on that?


Offline Alex

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2018, 10:50:03 am »
Quote
why ? - because someone thinks they're needed or useful
you presumably don't

in the same way that most people think P Bolts are useful and others don't

Are you saying that there are people who don't approve of the anchor scheme? Would you like to enlarge on that?

I guess people may think it's too easy or something like that. I for one am all for the anchor scheme, I mean on conservation grounds it saves drilling a new bolt hole every 5 - 10 years. Anyway's off topic, I suggest splitting if anchor scheme is going to be discussed further.

P.s. Well done on doing Marble sink!
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2018, 11:50:15 am »
Quote
why ? - because someone thinks they're needed or useful
you presumably don't

in the same way that most people think P Bolts are useful and others don't

Are you saying that there are people who don't approve of the anchor scheme? Would you like to enlarge on that?

I guess people may think it's too easy or something like that. I for one am all for the anchor scheme, I mean on conservation grounds it saves drilling a new bolt hole every 5 - 10 years. Anyway's off topic, I suggest splitting if anchor scheme is going to be discussed further.

P.s. Well done on doing Marble sink!

I think it's on topic. There are some people who don't understand the reason why we have an anchor scheme. They tend to be cavers who aren't old enough to know what was happening before. If you look around at the head of some ptiches you will see an unsightly assortment of redundant metalwork. There used to be a free for all with people installing all manner of stuff in a totally anarchistic way. The majority of cavers viewed what was happening as very undesirable. The CNCC started to install anchors in a systematic and regulated way.

Cave Troll compared the anchor scheme to someone installing what appear to be via ferratta steps and the two things are totally at odds. The purpose of the anchor scheme is to remove the need for people installing DIY anchors. The majority of cavers understand why we have the anchor scheme and approve of it. I think most cavers would dissaprove of anybody installing fixed aids in caves which were not entirely neccessary for cavers to get down the cave and especially if they damaged the cave and could not easily be removed. That's the complete opposite of the anchor scheme.

Offline Cave_Troll

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2018, 01:04:59 pm »
i was saying that its a sliding scale.

Some people might say "i've always free climbed it, whats the problem?"
Some people may think we should be rigging off nuts, slings and stemples that we remove when finished.
others say that to get safely down that hole anchors of some kind are useful
others may feel that a via ferrata may be the way forward.


Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2018, 03:37:12 pm »
i was saying that its a sliding scale.

Some people might say "i've always free climbed it, whats the problem?"
Some people may think we should be rigging off nuts, slings and stemples that we remove when finished.
others say that to get safely down that hole anchors of some kind are useful
others may feel that a via ferrata may be the way forward.

You're making this sound a lot more complicated than it is.

We have a sytem that has evolved over more than five decades of Dales caving. There used to be a line of stemples on Battleaxe Traverse. The people who initiated the systematic installation of anchors removed the stemples and installed a line of anchors (Spits at first, later replaced with resin anchors). They established a principal that we don't install aids such as stemples or steps but instead we install anchors and use rope to protect progress on natural holds. This provides the highest level of safety with the minimum impact on the cave.

The CNCC only install anchors and we install the minimum number. The anchor scheme is open to public scrutiny, any caver can express their views on anchor installations and their opinions are actively invited. They can request installations or apply to become an installer. It is because the anchor scheme is run by a democratically constituted body in a way that is open to public scrutiny that I can confidently say that it has the approval of the majority of cavers. It also has the approval of the Cave Rescue Organisation, BCA, Natural England and Yorkshire Dales National Park.

Imagine asking those bodies if they approve of somebody taking it on themselves to install via ferratta steps in a cave. Imagine what would happen if somebody just went and installed via ferratta steps across Middlefell Buttress or Malham Cove.

It is quite simple - most cavers know what is approved of and what is not approved of.

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2018, 06:14:39 pm »
I can see cave trolls point, but this is a very specific case in a well known place. If we installed a via ferrata course round Titan, yes it would be impressive. But it would also be a travesty!
 Common sense must prevail, stemples have no place in known pbolted caves.

We've installed some in a small mine in Derbyshire, but to negate the need for SRT entirely, as in the specific case it's a Faff, for no benefit.


Cave now, Faff later.

Offline JB

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2018, 09:56:05 pm »
In my opinion (and obviously plenty of others) they need to go. CNCC are the right group for the job after a quick vote? and I hope there's someone who thinks likewise who will push to get it done.

Jules.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2018, 08:32:57 am »
Six people appear to have taken issue with this. Many have not.

Whoever went to the (significant) effort to install these (presumably for a perceived compelling reason) would doubtless be disheartened if their work was vetoed by a tiny cabal and subsequently removed.

The people who aren't impressed with the efforts should avert their eyes and carry on caving without recourse to them.

Offline Cave_Troll

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2018, 11:10:34 am »
are the metal steps in wall still there in Old Ing/Dismal Hill ?

Offline Andyj23UK

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2018, 11:11:28 am »
i has looked at the pics - and read the thread - but still unsure EXACTLY where these are - and what they are supposed to achieve

access to the " hi level traverse " - is NOT hard .

Offline langcliffe

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2018, 11:15:45 am »
i has looked at the pics - and read the thread - but still unsure EXACTLY where these are - and what they are supposed to achieve
access to the " hi level traverse " - is NOT hard .

They are a little way downstream from where the traverse crosses the passage. They are definitely not meant to facilitate access to the high level traverse. I suspect that they are intended to make one section easier.

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2018, 11:17:56 am »
The people who aren't impressed with the efforts should avert their eyes and carry on caving without recourse to them.

That sounds like a slippery slope. I think they should be removed unless a seriously good justification can be put forward for them to remain.

Offline BradW

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2018, 11:29:46 am »
The people who aren't impressed with the efforts should avert their eyes and carry on caving without recourse to them.

That sounds like a slippery slope. I think they should be removed unless a seriously good justification can be put forward for them to remain.
Removing them might also be considered the start of a slippery slope, without investing some serious time in finding out who put them there and to what end. THEN decide what to do, having had a civilised debate with all interested parties.

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2018, 11:31:29 am »
Remove them.

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2018, 11:38:23 am »
are the metal steps in wall still there in Old Ing/Dismal Hill ?

Hope so   :thumbsup:

Offline Chocolate fireguard

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2018, 11:38:54 am »
i has looked at the pics - and read the thread - but still unsure EXACTLY where these are - and what they are supposed to achieve
access to the " hi level traverse " - is NOT hard .

They are a little way downstream from where the traverse crosses the passage. They are definitely not meant to facilitate access to the high level traverse. I suspect that they are intended to make one section easier.

At last.
After 3 days and more than 40 replies, many given over to wailing and gnashing of teeth and only a couple asking for this information, we now know where they are.
How many of us really bother to read stuff, and then wonder if we have enough information, before rushing off a reply?