Descent article on Twll Du

[Ogof anghenfil]

Had my latest Descent through the letterbox today and yet another article on Twll Du. This time suggesting that cavers should compensate the land owner for the costs towards shutting this cave entrance into the Ogof Draenen system. Cavers open caves, not shut them and should never give money towards this.
There was also a comment that the bat survey showed that no bats have been using Twll Du yet many bats are in this area of the cave all the way to 'mid winters chambers'.

[Scrappycaver]

Had my latest Descent through the letterbox today and yet another article on Twll Du. This time suggesting that cavers should compensate the land owner for the costs towards shutting this cave entrance into the Ogof Draenen system. Cavers open caves, not shut them and should never give money towards this.
There was also a comment that the bat survey showed that no bats have been using Twll Du yet many bats are in this area of the cave all the way to 'mid winters chambers'.

Once again the article in descent  is edited to discredit  twll du , can we really expect more !! To suggest no bats using the entrance is ludicrous after previous reports suggested otherwise!!

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[Cap'n Chris]

Had my latest Descent through the letterbox today and yet another article on Twll Du. This time suggesting that cavers should compensate the land owner for the costs towards shutting this cave entrance into the Ogof Draenen system. Cavers open caves, not shut them and should never give money towards this.

There is an old saying that the best people for messing up access to caves are cavers.

I read the article and it was unequivocal that the money being sought is to support the landowner as a gesture of goodwill; for the landowner to be lumped with a four figure bill for something they didn't dig open could be a significant nail in the coffin from a caver-landowner relations viewpoint.

[braveduck]

Who wrote the article ?

[Trig Gledhill]

Do we need another Twll Du / Draenen thread?

[Badlad]

Chris Howes wrote the piece in the latest Descent and as with previous articles by him he reports from one side of the argument.  It is my understanding that Chris is a personal friend of one of the landowners outside of caving and has been involved with the cave since its discovery by his club.  It is no surprise that he should be concerned about the burden placed on his friends.

The way the report is written though highlights why the dispute has become so toxic - you said this, they said that etc  What's needed is for people like Chris Howes to stand tall, respected people on both sides of the dispute need to stand tall and try to bring an end to this acrimonious episode of Welsh caving history.  It's going to take years to recover even then.  Those who can need to bite the bullet and seek a resolution.  At the moment caving suffers, the cave is devalued, it reflects badly on us all and I doubt the authorities have any faith in either side any more. 

It is just ridiculous to have a caving community split between those who want to open cave entrances and those who want to close them.  Crazy, and five sections of Heras fencing to cordon off a manhole sized opening is even more crazy.  You don't get that at Gaping Gill.  Not to mention £12,000 to block up the entrance - you've all gone mad.

[Dave Tyson]

Like badlad I was incensed when I read that article in descent and commented in a private email to Stuart France that:

"Just been reading the latest descent (263) and noticed the 'Welsh News'
doesn't have a byline for Martyn Farr (and this was also true for 262).
I wonder if Chris Howes has taken over to give his slant on things, but
note Martyn is still listed as the correspondent on page 3..."

The suggestion the caving community should help fund the closure of an entrance is laughable.

I have a better suggestion:

The BCA approaches the landowner, Pwll Du Conservation, and offers to buy the land and contribute to the sealing of Twll Du. They then fund diggers to create a new entrance 50m away from the tramway which intersects the original aven or a nearer one to provide free and unfettered access. The advantages would be:

(1) The BCA uses some of its cash pile - a point noted at the last AGM
(2) The sad Draehen saga would finally be resolved
(3) The environment is saved - no need to concrete the Nunnery or Drws Cefn
(4) PDCMG can be disbanded - less hot air to cause global warming 

Dave
 

[Ian Adams]

Badlad +1
Dave T +1

 

Ian

[timwatts]

Badlad +1
Dave T +1

from me too.

And i'd like to challenge anyone to come up with a single rational argument against, one which truly has the general caving community best interests at heart.

[cavemanmike]

Badlad +1
Dave T +1

You got nothing to do on that rig timbo

from me too.

And i'd like to challenge anyone to come up with a single rational argument against, one which truly has the general caving community best interests at heart.

[timwatts]

mike - just trying to work out how to update my signature! 

[timwatts]

thats better :-)

[cavemanmike]

My typing has disappeared. What I was trying to say was
You've obviously got nothing to do on that rig of yours

[Ogof anghenfil]

Do we need another Twll Du / Draenen thread?

Yes we do as this is about 'should cavers pay towards shutting caves/cave entrances'. Would you donate to this cause?

[Trig Gledhill]

Do we need another Twll Du / Draenen thread?

Yes we do as this is about 'should cavers pay towards shutting caves/cave entrances'. Would you donate to this cause?

I'd pay for this 5 sided keyboard war to finish...

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[Trig Gledhill]

Obviously not inciting you're a keyboard warrior but it seems that's all this Draenen malarkey has been. One big slanging match on that forum.

We are cavers, I just go caving.

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[Scrappycaver]

Obviously not inciting you're a keyboard warrior but it seems that's all this Draenen malarkey has been. One big slanging match on that forum.

We are cavers, I just go caving.

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Only on controlled selected entrances

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[Ogof anghenfil]

Warriors come and go, the cave will still be there many years from now. And so will be the many entrances, found and yet to be found. 

[Trig Gledhill]

Obviously not inciting you're a keyboard warrior but it seems that's all this Draenen malarkey has been. One big slanging match on that forum.

We are cavers, I just go caving.

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Only on controlled selected entrances

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Depends whos asking

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[paul]

Global Moderator Comment

Posts relating to the sad loss of Nig Rogers have been moved to the Obituaries, Cavers Remembered section.