Author Topic: Jean Pot  (Read 2436 times)

Offline Gareth Davies

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Jean Pot
« on: September 28, 2018, 12:23:21 pm »
I recall (2016) someone was installing P hangers in Jean Pot. Was this finished (and derigged) and does someone have a rigging topo or description?

Regards Gareth

Offline topcat

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2018, 02:30:25 pm »
you have PM

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2018, 03:12:16 pm »
intriguing

Online PeteHall

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2018, 08:33:07 pm »
you have PM

Are P hangers secret now?

I would have thought that this would be useful to others, now and on an Internet search in the future...
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Offline topcat

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2018, 09:53:12 pm »
Pete, the PM was in order to send a pfd. of the topo.

Nothing to do with P hangers, secret or not.

Offline CNCC

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2018, 07:59:01 am »
Jean Pot is not fitted with any CNCC approved anchors.

On my last visit (several years ago) it was mostly rigged from spits and naturals. My local university club actually used to use it as expedition rigging practice.

A reminder to anyone considering resin anchoring a cave... please get in touch with the CNCC first. We can see that it is done under our anchor scheme meaning the anchors and resin are paid for and we can put your topo on our website and let others know  :)

Cheers
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Offline Gareth Davies

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2018, 09:16:33 am »
Pete and all - just for clarification I was mistaken about it having P hangers installed. Instead it was being reset with new Spits for safer easier rigging.

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2018, 12:11:27 pm »
Worth a visit I think  :thumbsup:

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2018, 09:44:06 pm »
Worth a visit I think  :thumbsup:

Without a doubt!

I've only been once (over 10 years ago now), but it wasn't a trip I'd easily forget. :thumbsup:

Log book states:
Quote
Seven pitches and not a P-bolt in sight... Good honest caving.

Sounds like this is still the case  :)
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Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2018, 10:09:16 am »
I think anybody who got to the level of caving experience where they were capable of going down Jean Pot and knew what a Spit was would understand the anchor replacement programme. So I think it unlikely that anybody would even think about installing Spits there or anywhere else in the Dales.

Having read some of the comments in this thread I feel dismayed. If I am reading things correctly some people appear to be condoning the use of Spits and welcome a lack of sustainable and safe anchors. Please tell me I'm misunderstanding.

I think it would be obvious to anybody that Jean Pot is high on the list of caves that need anchors replacing. A volunteer for the job would be very welcome.

Offline topcat

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2018, 12:41:12 pm »
Simon, I think you are right in the long term, but it would be a bit perverse to do Jean Pot on resins just after it has been done with new spits....there must be hundreds of other caves needing resins: let's do these first ?

I'm keen to get on the resin anchor scheme but the last dates didn't work for me.  When is the next training?

TC

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2018, 02:49:35 pm »
Simon, I think you are right in the long term, but it would be a bit perverse to do Jean Pot on resins just after it has been done with new spits.

TC

Are you saying that somebody has replaced the old Spits with more Spits?

Offline Roger W

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2018, 03:56:10 pm »
That's what Gareth seems to be saying (reply no. 6, above).
"That, of course, is the dangerous part about caves:  you don't know how far they go back, sometimes... or what is waiting for you inside."   JRR Tolkein: "The Hobbit"

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2018, 09:13:33 am »
What complete idiot would do such a thing? It makes me want to give it up when there are people working in opposition to the anchor scheme.

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2018, 09:26:14 am »
Simon, I think you are right in the long term, but it would be a bit perverse to do Jean Pot on resins just after it has been done with new spits....there must be hundreds of other caves needing resins: let's do these first ?

I'm keen to get on the resin anchor scheme but the last dates didn't work for me.  When is the next training?

TC

There never have been any dates; it doesn't work like that. In order for someone to be trained they have to have a project to do.

Caves with Spits are the highest priority and if more Spits have been installed in Jean Pot then that makes it more imperative.

If someone can suggest a cave with a high priority for resin anchors and commit to carrying it out then they will get training ASAP.

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2018, 10:59:28 am »
I've popped my head in before, but was having an off day, so let the others go in without me. From online reports, it seems like the vast majority of the rigging is done from Naturals.

Jean has had a reputation for a number of years for being an expedition training ground, being the only place in the UK where people will encounter rigging from Flakes, Boulder chocks and other naturals. There being spits in there is somewhat incidental, but will also give people experience of using bolts which aren't resin-Hangers.

This is one site in the whole of the dales where I think people would prefer to keep it as a training ground for expedition. Clearly if you believe that it should be resin-hangered, then you will need to consider the needs of the cavers who are seeking out this particular venue.
 If you're thinking of Resin-Hangering, then quite a few expeditions will rig from expansion bolts. So an alternative to using the typical resin bolts maybe to resin some 8mm threaded bar into the rock and include a nut and washer. (the only other expedition options are Petzl Spits and raumer rainox, so this is a compromise)

It's place in the "black book" is probably down to it's esoteric nature of rigging.

Offline nobrotson

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2018, 12:22:27 pm »
I've popped my head in before, but was having an off day, so let the others go in without me. From online reports, it seems like the vast majority of the rigging is done from Naturals.

Jean has had a reputation for a number of years for being an expedition training ground, being the only place in the UK where people will encounter rigging from Flakes, Boulder chocks and other naturals. There being spits in there is somewhat incidental, but will also give people experience of using bolts which aren't resin-Hangers.

This is one site in the whole of the dales where I think people would prefer to keep it as a training ground for expedition. Clearly if you believe that it should be resin-hangered, then you will need to consider the needs of the cavers who are seeking out this particular venue.
 If you're thinking of Resin-Hangering, then quite a few expeditions will rig from expansion bolts. So an alternative to using the typical resin bolts maybe to resin some 8mm threaded bar into the rock and include a nut and washer. (the only other expedition options are Petzl Spits and raumer rainox, so this is a compromise)

It's place in the "black book" is probably down to it's esoteric nature of rigging.

The black book is over 10 years old now, meaning that a number of the entries in the book are not up to date and it doesn't include trips that have only become possible since that time (eg through trips out of notts 2). Mike Cooper says this in the introduction to the book, specifically in reference to the installation of P hangers. So I don't think its rigging was the main reason for its inclusion, more the fact that its a nice esoteric wet-weather option. There are plenty of other caves that require rigging from naturals in the book (for example, knacker trapper, hangmans hole, broken finger pot), and plenty that have dodgy spits in them (newby moss pot, yockenthwaite pot, broken finger pot). this cave is not unique in that respect.

I don't think that the idea of a UK cave being a 'training ground' for alpine rigging because it has spits in is particularly valid because the defining nature of alpine rigging is no different from rigging in UK caves: it should be tight and high and not rub. If you follow those rules then alpine rigging feels not much different, regardless of whether you are using resin anchors or not. Unless you are suggesting that the training would involve totally rebolting the cave each time then I don't see that anything unique will be learnt. Compromising on the longevity of a caving trip by holding off installing sustainable anchors just so a few students can see some spits underground isn't a good idea. How many times does Jean Pot get descended by students 'training' for exped per year? maybe once or twice, maybe not at all. I don't see that they are the primary users of the cave at all. 'Glueing in' some expansion bolts does not solve the conservation issue at all, and is also a totally pointless activity. Why are you suggesting that a cave, a wild place, should be viewed as a little playground so some students can do 1 trip that might sort of resemble a different situation to those available elsewhere in the dales? Seems a strange idea to me, especially considering that said students will almost certainly be too hungover to remember any of it. That kind of learning happens when they are out there in an alpine cave in my experience...
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Offline Alex

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2018, 01:11:04 pm »
Wish the drill was not so expensive, otherwise I would happily for training and put them in.

However, I may end up purchasing a drill for abroad at some point but that will be for putting through bolts in for expos. I assume a different drill would be required due to the large bit needed for Resin anchors?
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Offline CNCC

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2018, 03:45:51 pm »
The presence of resin anchors in a cave does not necessarily mean visiting cavers are obligated to use them. If you want to learn to rig from naturals, they will still be there  :)

The subject of ‘to resin anchor or not’ is always going to divide opinions, from the purists who prefer their caves totally unmodified, and their rigging entirely from natural belays, to the cavers who have come to expect and desire caves to be fitted with safe anchors for all pitches.

The balance between conservation, safety and accessibility will always be difficult to judge and we will never get it right for everyone.

I am of the belief that many cavers simply want to enjoy the caves they visit without concerns about the integrity of what their rope is hanging off. While resin anchors always require a pre-use inspection, their safety record (at least for all CNCC installed ones) speaks for itself.

Many caves which were fitted with spits, even recently, are now showing issues. I had a trip into (Get Down) Shep Pot on Leck Fell a few weeks ago, only to find two of the spits on the first pitch were unserviceable… and these are relatively recent (within the last 15 years I think).

The CNCC anchor scheme, which Simon does an excellent job coordinating, exists to see that caves in need of new anchors to enable safe descent, are fitted with resin anchors by an approved installer, using resin and anchors which have been shown to be fit for purpose. Careful consideration is given to conservation; ensuring anchors are only placed in caves where they are deemed to be needed and that their placements are not excessive. Again, this is fairly subjective, but we do our best.

We discourage the installation of new spits (or any other kind of anchor) into any major cave (i.e. particularly one that other groups will visit), especially when resin anchoring is so easily available via the CNCC scheme and provides a much safer and long-term solution.

If anyone has a desire to anchor a particular cave, please do get in touch with the CNCC before taking your own action - At the very least to just discuss it. We are not the anchor police (and we are not going to pretend to be), but we do want to try to help. We now have two trainers, and we are happy to arrange training, provide the anchors, and cover the cost of resin and consumables. In doing so you will be helping us to maintain a safe standard for all new anchor placements across our region, which I think is what the majority of the caving community would want to see.

Alex;
We understand that the need to own a drill is a little prohibitory at the moment. The anchor scheme has only just started so we have not yet given consideration to loaning equipment for enthusiastic potential installers who do not own a drill. If you have some projects you would be willing to undertake if the CNCC could loan you a drill, please let us know and we can look into possible resolutions.

Matt Ewles, CNCC Secretary

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Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2018, 04:06:03 pm »
Thank you Wob Rotson. I second everything Rob says.

I will add that if anybody wants to endanger themselves by using Spits there are thousands to be found littering the caves of the Dales.

The famous ULSA caver Alan Brook was advocating sustainable anchors over forty years ago. He dismissed Spits and started developing and installing sustainable anchors. It was AB who installed the anchors on Lancliffe Pot entrance pitch including one of his home-made stainless steel anchors fixed with epoxy resin. I deliberately left them in place out of respect for AB. I know Rob has seen them because he mentioned them in a post after his trip down Langcliffe.

My point is that well over forty years ago a highly regarded caver totally condemned the use of Spits. Many cavers, including myself, became increasingly vocal about the damage being done to caves and also the great danger involved with Spits. We have been working ever since to banish the cursed Spit from caves.

After several decades of the anchor scheme we should not have to keep reminding people why we have an anchor scheme. We have an anchor scheme because we are trying to avoid people installing crappy anchors in caves, damaging the caves with 'bolt rash' and putting people in danger. Unsustainable, 'crappy' anchors include Spits, drop-ins, all throughbolts and hammer-set anchors.

When UK cavers go caving abroad I would like to think that we aim to set the same high standards of conservation and safety that we would set at home.

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2018, 06:42:06 pm »
Sorry guys, I was just playing devils advocate.

I wasn't advocating taking a drill or driver, just in using what's there and knowing when you're beat with the hangers and slings you've got. At least then you'd get to the pub earlier.

Offline Canary

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2018, 06:56:37 pm »
French caves must be knee deep in bodies with all the spits they use  :-\

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2018, 07:31:25 am »
When UK cavers go caving abroad I would like to think that we aim to set the same high standards of conservation and safety that we would set at home.

:P

I'd like to see an 800m deep expedition cave at 2 degrees (so slow resin curing time, poor battery performance) reset with resin anchors... And then re-reset with more resin anchors once objectives change...

Just using stainless through bolts instead of non-stainless is often too big a cost.

Offline mikem

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2018, 08:04:47 am »
Whilst exploring you are not going to wait for resin to set on every bolt you place, so P anchors have no place there - they are for popular caves, where other anchors get trashed quickly, so no hurry to replace the spits - although ring attachments would be good for pull throughs, before the eyes in Simpsons wear away.

& following the dot to dot of P bolts is not the same as working out where would be best to rig off and finding the spit (if there isn't a useable natural)...

Mike

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2018, 08:45:09 am »
There's an article on the CNCC website about self-tapping concrete screws but it is very well hidden. Try a Google search for 'CNCC concrete screws' or the link below might work.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwiNrv-JpezdAhXRbsAKHeZcBq4QFjAAegQICRAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcncc.org.uk%2Fdoc%2F1182&usg=AOvVaw1y7ZGx6_NtkbWPqc4yut9O

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2018, 09:10:39 am »
I'd like to see an 800m deep expedition cave at 2 degrees reset with resin anchors


I heard you did seriously consider it once (not resetting an entire cave), but placing a few abroad to see what it's like.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2018, 09:51:15 am »
I heard you did seriously consider it once (not resetting an entire cave), but placing a few abroad to see what it's like.

I did stick one 12mm BP one on the surface once on exped but that's all.

There's an article on the CNCC website about self-tapping concrete screws but it is very well hidden.

Throughbolts, spits, HKDs etc have decades of use which shows they are at least reasonably reliable for long-term (as in potentially decades but only used a few weeks a year) exploratory use. I can't find as much info concrete screw use.

Can you recommend concrete screws for long term use? (also can you use the drill to screw them in, at least until nearly the end? I assume not, because of the risk of over-torquing)

Not so reassuring:
https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=22388.0
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rocktalk/concrete_screws_for_sport_climbing-661792

More reassuring:
https://www.alpenverein.de/chameleon/public/15447/bohrhaken-2009_15447.pdf (in German which I had to Google Translate bits of)

and I assume this is still current that the BCA is not recommending them (although not recommending against them, either)
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=20080.0

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2018, 10:25:54 am »
A mixture of temporary, removable anchors such as concrete screws or Petzl Pulse and more permanent removable anchors such as resin anchors are perfect for caving.

When reading information on caving anchors please read critically and evaluate the source. I suggest asking the following questions: Is the writer an engineer? Is the writer a caver? Does the writer have first-hand knowledge of the things they are writing about?

I have gone to a lot of trouble researching concrete screws because I found it difficult to find authoritative information about them. I wrote an article and I have provided a link to it.

If you are so determined not to try to use sustainable anchors as you appear to be then I give up.

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2018, 11:45:41 am »

Offline Ed

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2018, 08:29:51 pm »
While I'm all for the official CNCC hangers, Sustainable anchor is a bit of a misnomer.....they aren't sustainable by any definition.

Either production is not sustainable and you still have to damage the natural feature to place them.

Lower impact would be a much better term.
 :hug:

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2018, 12:19:08 am »
While I'm all for the official CNCC hangers, Sustainable anchor is a bit of a misnomer.....they aren't sustainable by any definition.

Either production is not sustainable and you still have to damage the natural feature to place them.

Lower impact would be a much better term.
 :hug:

I agree almost entirely but I talk about anchors quite a lot and I often use the term 'sustainable anchors'. I have given it some thought and I am not very happy with it. I use 'sustainable anchors' because other people use it and people accept it. By saying, "any definition" you have allowed for there to be more than one definition.

I am using the word sustainable in a similar vain to the way it is used in the term 'sustainable development'. Sustainable development came into vogue following the Bruntland Report and that gives the following definition; "Sustainable development is development that meets the needs of the present, without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs." There are other definitions. I think sustainable is one of those words that you can't anchor down.

It's late and I need to go to bed so I'll just say that on the whole I agree with you and I'll try to use the term low impact anchors in future.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2018, 05:13:33 am »
A mixture of temporary, removable anchors such as concrete screws or Petzl Pulse and more permanent removable anchors such as resin anchors are perfect for caving.

Resin anchors (that are commercially available) are generally not removable (although I don't think this is a problem). That doesn't answer my question though.

Quote
I have gone to a lot of trouble researching concrete screws because I found it difficult to find authoritative information about them. I wrote an article and I have provided a link to it.

I have read it and I do find them interesting, which is why I asked the questions. Resin anchors are (probably) gloriously impractical for expeditions. This is where stainless concrete screws might have a niche but you didn't test them. If you were on expedition and were placing bolts that might be in long term use (and you can't practically place resins), what would you use?

How many resin anchors/concrete screws can you place in a day?

And can you drive concrete screws in with a drill?

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2018, 10:42:29 am »
A mixture of temporary, removable anchors such as concrete screws or Petzl Pulse and more permanent removable anchors such as resin anchors are perfect for caving.

Resin anchors (that are commercially available) are generally not removable (although I don't think this is a problem). That doesn't answer my question though.

Quote
I have gone to a lot of trouble researching concrete screws because I found it difficult to find authoritative information about them. I wrote an article and I have provided a link to it.

I have read it and I do find them interesting, which is why I asked the questions. Resin anchors are (probably) gloriously impractical for expeditions. This is where stainless concrete screws might have a niche but you didn't test them. If you were on expedition and were placing bolts that might be in long term use (and you can't practically place resins), what would you use?

How many resin anchors/concrete screws can you place in a day?

And can you drive concrete screws in with a drill?

You could but they go in very easily with a ratchet socket

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2018, 12:58:28 pm »
A mixture of temporary, removable anchors such as concrete screws or Petzl Pulse and more permanent removable anchors such as resin anchors are perfect for caving.

Resin anchors (that are commercially available) are generally not removable (although I don't think this is a problem). That doesn't answer my question though.

Quote
I have gone to a lot of trouble researching concrete screws because I found it difficult to find authoritative information about them. I wrote an article and I have provided a link to it.

I have read it and I do find them interesting, which is why I asked the questions. Resin anchors are (probably) gloriously impractical for expeditions. This is where stainless concrete screws might have a niche but you didn't test them. If you were on expedition and were placing bolts that might be in long term use (and you can't practically place resins), what would you use?

How many resin anchors/concrete screws can you place in a day?

And can you drive concrete screws in with a drill?

Most resin anchors can easily be pulled out with a puller especially the IC anchor which was designed with removal in mind. Anchors fixed with epoxy resin can be removed by heating. Other resins including polyester and vinylester resins don't soften enough.

I think people shouldn't use anything they can't remove. Throughbolts are curse worse than Spits and drop-ins because they are extremely difficult to remove to the point where they will never be removed. I have managed to remove a few with very great difficulty. I have tried a lot and never found one that was drilled deep enough to push it in.

Resin anchors are very practical for expeditions. On expeditions people spend time dropping shafts once only and that is when concrete screws are perfect. It's easy to carry a drill around on the surface.

If a cave goes, often there comes a time as it gets deeper that you have to spend time rerigging the entrance pitches. You might decide to put resin anchors in if you think it's worth it. If you aren't caving round the clock but going back to camp at night then it's quite straight forward and you have plenty of time for the resin to set between trips.

The resin we have been using sets in about 20mins although a usually give it at least an hour before loading.

On an expedition, if a cave gets deep and you're going to have to come back the next year that's when resin anchors might come in. You would have to weigh up the options carefully and make a decision. It will take up time which you might not have but if you do have time, in most cases it would be straight forward to install resin anchors all the way out as you derig.

I know people like stainless throughbolts. If they understand all the factors and conservation issues, that's their choice if they are on a expedition and have the permission of the local cavers and/or authorities. They don't have any permission in the Dales and I destroy them when they get in the way of the anchor scheme, which we do have permission and support for.

I have not been able to get stainless concrete screws and I really can't see any point in them for caving use. Concrete screws are for temporary use so a life of a few years is plenty.

They have a tendency to come loose which is why I use the larger ones and tighten them tight.

If I remember correctly, think Sam Alshorn has installed about 14 resin anchors in one trip. How many concrete screws? As many as you could without running out of drill batteries - 50? 60? - a wild guess depending on the size. There are thousands installed on construction sites every day. Construction workers love them. They are so simple and reliable.

I would never try to screw them in with a drill although on construction sites they might use proper impact drivers with torque settings or sockets and ratchet or torque wrench. In caves I have used a ring spanner but prefer a socket and ratchet driver.

Offline s_allshorn

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2018, 01:36:41 pm »
The most IC anchors I have placed in a day is 21. This of course does require help, which is always appreciated. 

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2018, 02:00:24 pm »
The most IC anchors I have placed in a day is 21. This of course does require help, which is always appreciated.

And that was in Gingling which was the most difficult cave that had been done at that point. Since then Mark and Toby have done Marble Sink which is also a very difficult cave although I wouln't like to say which is the greater challenge for installing anchors.

Hats off to these guys - and... watch this space...

Offline s_allshorn

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2018, 02:09:18 pm »
Sorry Simon. It was in Cupcake. The most I managed in Gingling was 16 in one day.