Author Topic: Jean Pot  (Read 2432 times)

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2018, 09:10:39 am »
I'd like to see an 800m deep expedition cave at 2 degrees reset with resin anchors


I heard you did seriously consider it once (not resetting an entire cave), but placing a few abroad to see what it's like.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2018, 09:51:15 am »
I heard you did seriously consider it once (not resetting an entire cave), but placing a few abroad to see what it's like.

I did stick one 12mm BP one on the surface once on exped but that's all.

There's an article on the CNCC website about self-tapping concrete screws but it is very well hidden.

Throughbolts, spits, HKDs etc have decades of use which shows they are at least reasonably reliable for long-term (as in potentially decades but only used a few weeks a year) exploratory use. I can't find as much info concrete screw use.

Can you recommend concrete screws for long term use? (also can you use the drill to screw them in, at least until nearly the end? I assume not, because of the risk of over-torquing)

Not so reassuring:
https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=22388.0
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rocktalk/concrete_screws_for_sport_climbing-661792

More reassuring:
https://www.alpenverein.de/chameleon/public/15447/bohrhaken-2009_15447.pdf (in German which I had to Google Translate bits of)

and I assume this is still current that the BCA is not recommending them (although not recommending against them, either)
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=20080.0

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2018, 10:25:54 am »
A mixture of temporary, removable anchors such as concrete screws or Petzl Pulse and more permanent removable anchors such as resin anchors are perfect for caving.

When reading information on caving anchors please read critically and evaluate the source. I suggest asking the following questions: Is the writer an engineer? Is the writer a caver? Does the writer have first-hand knowledge of the things they are writing about?

I have gone to a lot of trouble researching concrete screws because I found it difficult to find authoritative information about them. I wrote an article and I have provided a link to it.

If you are so determined not to try to use sustainable anchors as you appear to be then I give up.

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2018, 11:45:41 am »

Offline Ed

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2018, 08:29:51 pm »
While I'm all for the official CNCC hangers, Sustainable anchor is a bit of a misnomer.....they aren't sustainable by any definition.

Either production is not sustainable and you still have to damage the natural feature to place them.

Lower impact would be a much better term.
 :hug:

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2018, 12:19:08 am »
While I'm all for the official CNCC hangers, Sustainable anchor is a bit of a misnomer.....they aren't sustainable by any definition.

Either production is not sustainable and you still have to damage the natural feature to place them.

Lower impact would be a much better term.
 :hug:

I agree almost entirely but I talk about anchors quite a lot and I often use the term 'sustainable anchors'. I have given it some thought and I am not very happy with it. I use 'sustainable anchors' because other people use it and people accept it. By saying, "any definition" you have allowed for there to be more than one definition.

I am using the word sustainable in a similar vain to the way it is used in the term 'sustainable development'. Sustainable development came into vogue following the Bruntland Report and that gives the following definition; "Sustainable development is development that meets the needs of the present, without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs." There are other definitions. I think sustainable is one of those words that you can't anchor down.

It's late and I need to go to bed so I'll just say that on the whole I agree with you and I'll try to use the term low impact anchors in future.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2018, 05:13:33 am »
A mixture of temporary, removable anchors such as concrete screws or Petzl Pulse and more permanent removable anchors such as resin anchors are perfect for caving.

Resin anchors (that are commercially available) are generally not removable (although I don't think this is a problem). That doesn't answer my question though.

Quote
I have gone to a lot of trouble researching concrete screws because I found it difficult to find authoritative information about them. I wrote an article and I have provided a link to it.

I have read it and I do find them interesting, which is why I asked the questions. Resin anchors are (probably) gloriously impractical for expeditions. This is where stainless concrete screws might have a niche but you didn't test them. If you were on expedition and were placing bolts that might be in long term use (and you can't practically place resins), what would you use?

How many resin anchors/concrete screws can you place in a day?

And can you drive concrete screws in with a drill?

Offline maxf

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2018, 10:42:29 am »
A mixture of temporary, removable anchors such as concrete screws or Petzl Pulse and more permanent removable anchors such as resin anchors are perfect for caving.

Resin anchors (that are commercially available) are generally not removable (although I don't think this is a problem). That doesn't answer my question though.

Quote
I have gone to a lot of trouble researching concrete screws because I found it difficult to find authoritative information about them. I wrote an article and I have provided a link to it.

I have read it and I do find them interesting, which is why I asked the questions. Resin anchors are (probably) gloriously impractical for expeditions. This is where stainless concrete screws might have a niche but you didn't test them. If you were on expedition and were placing bolts that might be in long term use (and you can't practically place resins), what would you use?

How many resin anchors/concrete screws can you place in a day?

And can you drive concrete screws in with a drill?

You could but they go in very easily with a ratchet socket

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2018, 12:58:28 pm »
A mixture of temporary, removable anchors such as concrete screws or Petzl Pulse and more permanent removable anchors such as resin anchors are perfect for caving.

Resin anchors (that are commercially available) are generally not removable (although I don't think this is a problem). That doesn't answer my question though.

Quote
I have gone to a lot of trouble researching concrete screws because I found it difficult to find authoritative information about them. I wrote an article and I have provided a link to it.

I have read it and I do find them interesting, which is why I asked the questions. Resin anchors are (probably) gloriously impractical for expeditions. This is where stainless concrete screws might have a niche but you didn't test them. If you were on expedition and were placing bolts that might be in long term use (and you can't practically place resins), what would you use?

How many resin anchors/concrete screws can you place in a day?

And can you drive concrete screws in with a drill?

Most resin anchors can easily be pulled out with a puller especially the IC anchor which was designed with removal in mind. Anchors fixed with epoxy resin can be removed by heating. Other resins including polyester and vinylester resins don't soften enough.

I think people shouldn't use anything they can't remove. Throughbolts are curse worse than Spits and drop-ins because they are extremely difficult to remove to the point where they will never be removed. I have managed to remove a few with very great difficulty. I have tried a lot and never found one that was drilled deep enough to push it in.

Resin anchors are very practical for expeditions. On expeditions people spend time dropping shafts once only and that is when concrete screws are perfect. It's easy to carry a drill around on the surface.

If a cave goes, often there comes a time as it gets deeper that you have to spend time rerigging the entrance pitches. You might decide to put resin anchors in if you think it's worth it. If you aren't caving round the clock but going back to camp at night then it's quite straight forward and you have plenty of time for the resin to set between trips.

The resin we have been using sets in about 20mins although a usually give it at least an hour before loading.

On an expedition, if a cave gets deep and you're going to have to come back the next year that's when resin anchors might come in. You would have to weigh up the options carefully and make a decision. It will take up time which you might not have but if you do have time, in most cases it would be straight forward to install resin anchors all the way out as you derig.

I know people like stainless throughbolts. If they understand all the factors and conservation issues, that's their choice if they are on a expedition and have the permission of the local cavers and/or authorities. They don't have any permission in the Dales and I destroy them when they get in the way of the anchor scheme, which we do have permission and support for.

I have not been able to get stainless concrete screws and I really can't see any point in them for caving use. Concrete screws are for temporary use so a life of a few years is plenty.

They have a tendency to come loose which is why I use the larger ones and tighten them tight.

If I remember correctly, think Sam Alshorn has installed about 14 resin anchors in one trip. How many concrete screws? As many as you could without running out of drill batteries - 50? 60? - a wild guess depending on the size. There are thousands installed on construction sites every day. Construction workers love them. They are so simple and reliable.

I would never try to screw them in with a drill although on construction sites they might use proper impact drivers with torque settings or sockets and ratchet or torque wrench. In caves I have used a ring spanner but prefer a socket and ratchet driver.

Offline s_allshorn

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2018, 01:36:41 pm »
The most IC anchors I have placed in a day is 21. This of course does require help, which is always appreciated. 

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2018, 02:00:24 pm »
The most IC anchors I have placed in a day is 21. This of course does require help, which is always appreciated.

And that was in Gingling which was the most difficult cave that had been done at that point. Since then Mark and Toby have done Marble Sink which is also a very difficult cave although I wouln't like to say which is the greater challenge for installing anchors.

Hats off to these guys - and... watch this space...

Offline s_allshorn

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Re: Jean Pot
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2018, 02:09:18 pm »
Sorry Simon. It was in Cupcake. The most I managed in Gingling was 16 in one day.