Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)

[BradW]

A curious thing I've noticed about this thread. Many of the people criticising the installation of these steps are also people who in the past have voiced support for CROW access to caves, whereas some of their defenders have taken the opposite view. Is there a point here? Well, maybe - it's that CROW supporters do care about conservation.

Maybe it demonstrates that people who want freer access to caves draw the line when it comes to someone else exerting a freedom to freely add a feature of their own. Freedom is a complex beast.

[JohnMCooper]

There are many caves with metal steps already, so perhaps the only precedent being set is one wherein the steps are really badly installed, such that they look highly likely to snap someone's leg if they fell backwards and it slipped inside the rung as they did so.

The guide that Raumer issue say the maximum gap should be 150mm for their stemples. These look to protrude more than that.

See https://www.raumerclimbing.com/eng/prodotti_dettaglio.asp?prod=%F816_mm-270x300_stemple_rung_-_raumer-classic-_model-ribbed_bar&qi=0-21-378&qinav=0-21-c

[aricooperdavis]

But this also brings up the question as to why these stemples are so much worse than the knotted ropes all over the place in that system?

For me I'd rather have a rope than stemples simply because the impact associated with installation is less significant; a couple of holes in total for bolts for the rope, but a couple of holes per stemple if you're going with them. Ropes are also much more easily tucked out of the way for photos or if you don't want to use them, and easily removable, so feel more temporary, whereas stemples are a much more permanent feature. But I don't know the bit of cave in question, so don't feel like I can chip in much, other than hoping that in future these discussions will happen in a public forum pre-installation.

[NewStuff]

Maybe it demonstrates that people who want freer access to caves

Maybe it's that there's a consensus that these things are a bad idea. Just as there's a consensus that access needs to be more open, despite a vocal minority.

[caving_fox]

caving_fox: I get the impression that the climb you mention in your favourite cave is only accessible from the bottom, and if you want to gain access to the passage at the top then someone has to climb it somehow.
The situation with these new stemples in Easegill is quite different (assuming that they’re where I think they are) in that the top of the pitch is easily accessible from the other direction, and the stemples seem to have been placed in order to facilitate a through trip from one of the other entrances to County Pot.

There are bolts at the top of this pitch; it strike me that if someone is so keen on making life easy for themselves (and their instructed parties?????), then the best thing to have done would have been to rig a rope and keep an eye on it (it’s only a short pitch and renewing the rope every few months wouldn’t actually cost much).

True that does make a difference.

[JoW]

caving_fox: I get the impression that the climb you mention in your favourite cave is only accessible from the bottom, and if you want to gain access to the passage at the top then someone has to climb it somehow.
The situation with these new stemples in Easegill is quite different (assuming that they’re where I think they are) in that the top of the pitch is easily accessible from the other direction, and the stemples seem to have been placed in order to facilitate a through trip from one of the other entrances to County Pot.

There are bolts at the top of this pitch; it strike me that if someone is so keen on making life easy for themselves (and their instructed parties?????), then the best thing to have done would have been to rig a rope and keep an eye on it (it’s only a short pitch and renewing the rope every few months wouldn’t actually cost much).

Unless I am mistaken and things have changed I believe instructed groups are not allowed in Easegill, with the exception of CIC training or similar.

[droid]

There are bolts at the top of this pitch; it strike me that if someone is so keen on making life easy for themselves (and their instructed parties?????), then the best thing to have done would have been to rig a rope and keep an eye on it (it’s only a short pitch and renewing the rope every few months wouldn’t actually cost much).

Good point, but ignores the fact that ropes can 'disappear' whereas the stemples probably won't.


What's the problem with a fixed chain? I know of a couple of VERY popular caves that have these in situ for awkward little climbs, and no-one seems to object.....

[marysboy]

I do not intend to gather opinion on paying groups, access control gates or historical installations of fixed equipment elsewhere. And its not about scaffold or elitism.

I started this thread to gather people's views on the metal steps recently installed in the Dales. Thanks to those that responded so far.

It seems the online caving community active here is generally of the opinion that unsolicited via ferrata style step installation in the Dales is undesirable. Consensus by those who know this site also seems to be that installation of steps here was unnecessary.

To add context to those unfamiliar with the site, the climb can be easily reached from above via the Trident Series. This allows a rope or ladder to be rigged from above, using the new IC anchors.

When approaching from below, the lowest IC anchor is reachable BEFORE starting the climb, as shown by the yellow-suited caver in the photo. so a protecting rope or steps could be put in i think

[Simon Wilson]

I do not intend to gather opinion on paying groups, access control gates or historical installations of fixed equipment elsewhere. And its not about scaffold or elitism.

I started this thread to gather people's views on the metal steps recently installed in the Dales. Thanks to those that responded so far.

It seems the online caving community active here is generally of the opinion that unsolicited via ferrata style step installation in the Dales is undesirable. Consensus by those who know this site also seems to be that installation of steps here was unnecessary.

To add context to those unfamiliar with the site, the climb can be easily reached from above via the Trident Series. This allows a rope or ladder to be rigged from above, using the new IC anchors.

When approaching from below, the lowest IC anchor is reachable BEFORE starting the climb, as shown by the yellow-suited caver in the photo. so a protecting rope or steps could be put in i think

You have explained what you think about them and I think many people would agree with you.

At the start you said that you have spoken to the installer.

The installer, when i mentioned this to him, felt that they provide convenience of an upward through trip without needing to pre-rig or rely on a fixed rope.

Can you explain in more detail why they were installed? Is the installer aware of the objections to the similar installations in KMC? Are the two cases connected and if so in what way?

[marysboy]

Can you explain in more detail why they were installed? Is the installer aware of the objections to the similar installations in KMC? Are the two cases connected and if so in what way?

I don't have more details at present. I only spoke briefly with him and summarised as best i could what i remember of that conversation in my first post. I felt it reasonable to present his reasoning so far as it provided context for this discussion.

I don't wish to speculate further on the motivations or act as go-between for the installer. I feel it is up to them to get involved in discussion with the caving community at large. I do not think he is a member of this forum but will make him aware of this thread.

I am not aware of a connection with the KMC steps, other than:
(1) via ferrata steps installed in Dales cave where none was before
(2) arguably unneccesary location for the previous and anticipated users
(3) installed by an individual seemingly without wider prior approval.