[gmod]Topic split out from Ogof Drws Cefn one[/gmod]

It exists.  A grade 5 survey does exist.  I've even seen incredibly detailed survey of the official entrance series.  Just another reason to be unhappy with present PDCMG. 
Though the problem could lie elsewhere... 
There is a survey, so please, can mortal cavers get to see it please, pretty please, pretty please with ice cream on it....

Brains: the lack of an easily available survey is intimately linked to the arguments over entrances: the Nunnery entrance was, I think, located while checking the accuracy of a high grade survey...but that's a whole other can of worms which irritates many who contributed to the surveying...

Alkapton said:

It exists.  A grade 5 survey does exist.  I've even seen incredibly detailed survey of the official entrance series.  Just another reason to be unhappy with present PDCMG. 
Though the problem could lie elsewhere... 
There is a survey, so please, can mortal cavers get to see it please, pretty please, pretty please with ice cream on it....

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I'm not wholly certain that the PDCMC has the grade V survey data.

In other parts of the UK, notably Mendip but Derbyshire is also catching up with this, survey data is being uploaded the web under creative commons licences which means it is basically there to use, within the terms of the relevant CC licences, most of which only restrict or forbid commercial usage by others.

As far as I know only the surveyors have the grade V data.  But please can we have a survey.....?  Please....

graham said:

Alkapton said:

It exists.  A grade 5 survey does exist.  I've even seen incredibly detailed survey of the official entrance series.  Just another reason to be unhappy with present PDCMG. 
Though the problem could lie elsewhere... 
There is a survey, so please, can mortal cavers get to see it please, pretty please, pretty please with ice cream on it....

Click to expand...

I'm not wholly certain that the PDCMG has the grade V survey data.

Click to expand...

That is quite correct, the PDCMG do not hold (or have access to) the grade V survey data.

However, as Martin Laverty has stated, the survey (or lack of it, in terms of availability of both data and hard copy) is inextricably linked to the multiple entrance question. I seem to recall that an entire thread was devoted to this one topic several years ago, well before Drws Cefn assumed centre stage. Going over the same old ground discussing the pros and the cons of the myriad of reasons behind this is pointless.

The simple facts are that a high grade survey (in any form) is currently unavailable and (in my opinion) this situation is unlikely to change whilst the PDCMG's single entrance policy remains in place.

Riiiiiight

So the cave 'must' be available on your terms before the survey will be made available, even to those who helped procure the data.

As I said, on Mendip, the consensus these days is to make everything, down to the original raw data,. available under a creative commons licence, but in Wales, nobody (not even helpers) is allowed to see even the final drawing.

It's an interesting contrast, using modern techniques, those involved in, funnily enough, Reservoir Hole, are now used to seeing a Survex.3d plot of the data either before they go to bed that same night or with their morning cup of tea. yet those who helped on trips producing the Grade V Draenen survey have never been allowed to view the result. Funnily enough, I know at least one guy falls into both categories.

Now who's being arrogant?

And nobody can blame landowners, Natural England, anybody in fact for this refusal except other cavers.

Funny that.

graham said:

So the cave 'must' be available on your terms before the survey will be made available, even to those who helped procure the data.

Click to expand...

Whatever you might choose to construe my supposed "terms" as being has absolutely no bearing on this as I am not involved (and never have been) in the grade 5 survey.

My opinion (and it is only that) is based purely upon my own interpretation of the situation, nothing else.

Please do not make it appear as though I am speaking on behalf of anyone connected with the grade 5 survey or that I might be able to influence them in any way because that is simply not the case.

I've come to the conclusion that this grade 5 survey will never be published and I've accepted that. We can live without it. If they want to take their survey to their graves with them; Fine.

As surveying technology develops yet more, it will become easier and easier to re-survey the cave. Only next time it will only be done on the basis of all the data and rights being made public from day 1. The original grade 5 surveyors will be consigned to history and no one will give them or their survey second thought.

NigR said:

Please do not make it appear as though I am speaking on behalf of anyone connected with the grade 5 survey or that I might be able to influence them in any way because that is simply not the case.

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OK, I won't. I'll just remember that you seem to be aware of their policy in this regard.

Martin Laverty said:

Brains: the lack of an easily available survey is intimately linked to the arguments over entrances: the Nunnery entrance was, I think, located while checking the accuracy of a high grade survey.

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So the discoverers of Nunnery had access to the survey?-----??

bograt said:

So the discoverers of Nunnery had access to the survey?-----??

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Yes.

Anticipating that the next question might be something along the lines:

Did those who extended Drws Cefn and connected it to Draenen have access to the grade 5 survey?

The answer is:

No.

Brains: A pretty complete survey was even on sale for some time, so if you ask around you might find a copy.

Indeed, even a pretty complete set of calculated station coordinates got leaked on the internet showing that at one stage the surveying project was far more open than it became after what was probably just an unthinking copy of  a data file into template containing a copyright notice blew up into accusations of data theft, the survey instigators going their own way...

On the plus side, the same surveyors have made their data available for scientific investigation - as can be seen in the papers by Andy Farrant and Mike Simms in Cave & Karst Science 38(1) from Apr 2011 - and one bravely accepted election as a PDCMG officer (although, if I remember correctly without a vote, in contrast to another officer in charge of Grade 2 survey data)

You may find this page useful:-

http://www.cavinguk.co.uk/draenen/

Only 75% of the then known cave was surveyed to grade 5, then surveying stopped... wonder why... a great shame regardless. 

graham said:

As I said, on Mendip, the consensus these days is to make everything, down to the original raw data,. available under a creative commons licence,

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Which is so laudable and excellent that there are inadequate superlatives. If only all survey data was available on the same terms.

Chris.

I've seen the recent Mendip Cave book (but forget title).

It seems to set a new standard of excellence for others to follow.