Why don't cavers use clove hitches?

David Rose

David Rose

Active member
So I'm off to the Picos again in a few days and, with any luck, will get to rig some exciting new undescended shafts in the measureless caverns we hope to discover. When I was doing a lot of rock-climbing and Alpinism my friends and I used clove hitches all the time. They're very strong, economical with rope, easy to tie, and also easy to untie after being loaded. Does anyone know why they're still amost unknown underground ?Is there any reason why they wouldn't be safe?
 
Jon

Jon

Member
Because they're a hitch and not as secure as a knot. I'd use a clove hitch when I would stay in reach of it and needed quick adjustment of rope length.
 
Antwan

Antwan

Member
Jon said:
Because they're a hitch and not as secure as a knot. I'd use a clove hitch when I would stay in reach of it and needed quick adjustment of rope length.
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A cavers Butterfly is essentially a hitch, well two stacked half hitches?
 
Jon

Jon

Member
Antwan said:
Jon said:
Because they're a hitch and not as secure as a knot. I'd use a clove hitch when I would stay in reach of it and needed quick adjustment of rope length.
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A cavers Butterfly is essentially a hitch, well two stacked half hitches?
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I don't particularly like a caver's butterfly either
 
Alex

Alex

Well-known member
I have only used a clovehitch underground to attach digging equipment (such as a hoe) to a rope (when no one was below). However they are quite safe as a knot provided they are tied correctly. The biggest problem is people often tie Italian hitch instead of a clove hitch (or sometimes vice-a-versa and get hung up on pitches). The other problem is they don't work too well with mallons, as discussed on the other thread I believe.

I got around the wrong knot issue my self by tieing the two knots in completely different ways so I can never get them mixed up.
 
ah147

ah147

New member
They don't work too well with maillions. Preferring a wider load area.

I've often thought they'd be quite good for traverses where the line is level


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G

Geoff R

New member
Pete K said:
No loop to clip a cowstails to on a clove hitch.
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also, for what its worth, my view  :)  And similarly its why I would not choose to use a clove hitch for a traverse, as by choice I would want to clip into a rope loop at each krab by way of a nice Alpine Butterfly ;)
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Have used clove hitches for traverse rigging; clipping into the anchors or karabiners worked AOK but the nightmare was loosening off the knots afterwards following loading; caving rope is a pig to shimmy off the karabiners afterwards, compared with climbing rope.

CHs are also useful for other rigging purposes. Generally though they aren't part of the repertoire of caving rigging as the handful of knots presently used cover pretty much all bases.
 
JB

JB

Member
If you rig a traverse line with clove hitches and then load a section of it you're going to share the load between two anchors. If you use loop knots (like Alpine Butterflies) and have rigged it well you'll often be sharing the load between two or more on either side of where you're loading it. Now that many caves are equipped with such good anchors this a bit like debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin but the principle's sound. Clove hitches give you redundancy but they won't help you equalise between several anchors.

Having said that, if someone had stolen all the butterfly knots and overhand knots and anything else I could think of to do the same job I'd still go caving on them!

Jules.
 
adep

adep

Member
JB said:
If you rig a traverse line with clove hitches and then load a section of it you're going to share the load between two anchors. If you use loop knots (like Alpine Butterflies) and have rigged it well you'll often be sharing the load between two or more on either side of where you're loading it. Now that many caves are equipped with such good anchors this a bit like debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin but the principle's sound. Clove hitches give you redundancy but they won't help you equalise between several anchors.

Having said that, if someone had stolen all the butterfly knots and overhand knots and anything else I could think of to do the same job I'd still go caving on them!

Jules.
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Horses for courses really, as you say Joules, they wouldnt work for most traverses because you cant lengthen the knot to make the traverse line more or less level and then the load would also be concentrated on the one bolt.

I use clove hitches all the time for climbing on belays which works well with climbing rope, but on the odd occasion trying it with caving rope underground it can be a nightmare loosening the clove hitch enough to get it off the krab, you also cannot use it with a mallion as its not wide enough
 
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