Hi all,
Afraid I don't follow the forum enough to know if this has been posted. Not sure if any caves are on National Trust land in the areas in question - wondering if it could have implications for commercial caving? Or if it could potentially set a president for other areas NT own land.

http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2016/04/19/mountaineers-fear-new-national-trust-charges-will-hit-outdoor-leader-training

Well spotted, bagpuss. This plan was brought up at the recent BCA Council meeting and both Conservation & Access and Training are now aware of it.

Training/education/instruction is not commercial, it is professional/vocational. There is a massive difference. DEFRA & NRW recognise this, thankfully. NT need to take note.

Just because there is remuneration involved it does not make it commercial; if this is the defining characteristic then caving clubs and some ACBs are commercial outfits.

Showcaves are most likely the more correct definition for commercial caving.

Sorry, bad choice of words Captain Chris, main concern was that they were putting instruction into that category which is appalling in my view.

Instruction is so important as it improves safety and access to so many sports =improved health and well being. People are also more likely to donate and join the NT if they feel they are supporting this ethos.

There has been a lot of discussion on this in MT and BMC. Many members have directly contacted NT (who did ask for people to do so during this consultation period) and received a range of positive replies.
It does appear that NT recognise that educational activities should not be included in the charging scheme (and that a mountain leader taking a group would be counted as educational). Also, there have been comments that it would only apply to large groups anyway - mountain marathons, triathlons, car boot sales, etc.

I thought you had found some comment on an NRW site that educational trips were not 'commercial' Captain Chris?  Can you PM me with the links or put them up here?

The topic of what was commercial was raised at BCA's C&A meeting in February.  I recall the Scottish act did specifically include a statement making educational not commercial but NT does not go into Scotland.  I have no idea if any one from the caving world made representations to NT over this; I fear not.  But if they recognise the difference then is there a problem?