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Rigging: re-belays or big drops?

Should very long pitches be broken down into shorter ones where possible?

  • Yes, lets have more re-belays

    Votes: 23 63.9%

  • No, leave the long pitches alone

    Votes: 9 25.0%

  • Pain au Raisin

    Votes: 4 11.1%
  • Total voters
    36
T

topcat

Active member
I am getting more and more frustrated with unnecessary big pitches !!  By unnecessary I mean long drops that go down a shaft next to the wall rather than hang in space where it is impossible to connect with the wall.

I don't much like them because on the way down there is not much to do and passing a few re-belays would be interesting [I do like 'em].
But the main issue is on the way back up:  I need a rest and re-belays provide a sort of rest.  Of course the real bugbear of long pitches is all the waiting about for other folk to get up the damn things!  OK, so sometimes it not much of an issue, other than time wasted, but often folk get cold waiting about.  I've even seen folk get into bivi bags whilst waiting their turn.  It's just not good.

So, should we break up these long pitches with some re-belays?  For those folk who prefer long drops they can of course just ignore the extra bolts and head straight down.

 
paul

paul

Moderator
We usually rig extra belays such as the one in Rowter Pot entrance shaft and JH entrance shaft (in the Peak) which aren't necessary from the point of view of preventing rope rub but do, as you say, speed up the whole re-ascending process as it breaks a long pitch into two shorter ones.
 
Simon Wilson

Simon Wilson

New member
I think most people would agree with you and I think there has been a move away from rigging big drops to splitting them up. However, variety is good and it's sometimes possible to install anchors in such a way that it gives scope for different ways of rigging big shafts.

With regards to your question, "should we break up these long pitches with some re-belays?" I think you would need to be specific.

And with regard to adding a pole, there was thread on here a few months ago about how to make poles.
 
T

topcat

Active member
Simon Wilson said:
And with regard to adding a pole, there was thread on here a few months ago about how to make poles.
Click to expand...

;) This won't make much sense now that I have added a poll and deleted the pole bit... :tease:

I'm sure folk can be specific about varioius long pitches that end in wet droughty conditions.  Try bottom pitch of Diccan with its deviations; why not rig as re-belay?

There are other routes that come to mind, such as the big pitch of Bar Pot.  Nice and dry at the bottom and a comfy place to snooze, but a busy trade route often mobbed by large groups.  [I use the P bolt off to the R as a re-belay point but it is a bit of a swing and not ideal]
 
pwhole

pwhole

Well-known member
Funnily enough, I put a rebelay halfway down a shaft only last night for this purpose - at nearly 80m, it's a long cold wait at the bottom, and after a knackering trip, no-one's going to be climbing it that quickly. Plus it obviates some of the stretch, for more efficient prussicking. The rope was a couple of feet from the wall though, so drilling the holes was very hard work, as I had to hold onto the wall with my left hand to stop myself floating off, and my right arm took a battering forcing the drill. Should have taken a skyhook or similar, but didn't really think it through. Only on the way back up, about 15m above my rebelay, did I notice two stainless bolts that could have been used as well, splitting it into three pitches. So I'll use those too next time.
 
SamT

SamT

Moderator
I've added an extra option to the poll as its not a black and white subject really, every 'long' pitch is different, every circumstance is different every cavers preference is different..

I used to like the 'hook' style hanger half way down JH.
166_300x373B.gif


We used to rig it as a straight drop on the way in, except the last person down would just tie a quick fig eight, drop it on the hook and continue descending, so that on the return up journey, we could get two on the rope at a time.

Of course installing more re-belays requires more money and effort from the riggers (and a possibly a lot more effort - e.g. the most applicable pitch in the peak is titan.  How would you swing in to install the re-belays on the way down as you are too far from the wall. Same applies to rigging them I suppose.
 
T

topcat

Active member
My examples above are not good examples and miss the point of my post!  [Just got back from walking the dog and thinking about it]

My poor examples are poor because there are bolts there to use if you so desire.  Like the last pitch of Aquamole: I rig the third deviation as a RB.

What I was really looking at are the shafts that currently can only be done as a big pitch and that 'need' extra bolts.  Which is I think where Simon was coming from too.

Rift/Longkin
bottom of Lost John [drop at the end of Battleaxe Traverse]
Entrance pitch Death Head [it has RB's near the top already, needs more]

I'm at work suffering from brain-fade: there must be dozens.........
 
T

topcat

Active member
SamT said:
Of course installing more re-belays requires more money and effort from the riggers (and a possibly a lot more effort - e.g. the most applicable pitch in the peak is titan.  How would you swing in to install the re-belays on the way down as you are too far from the wall. Same applies to rigging them I suppose.
Click to expand...

In which case perhaps Titan is not an applicable pitch?  If you can't reach the walls then it is a naturally long pitch and we just have to accept that.
I'm talking about all those ledges and potential bolt placements that we pass within easy reach.
 
T

topcat

Active member
Fulk said:
topcat:
Entrance pitch Death Head [it has RB's near the top already, needs more]
Click to expand...

There is a re belay lower down.
Click to expand...

We were looking for the dev. bolt mentioned in the rigging guide but no one in  party of 6 spotted it!  Used a natural instead, and was surprised that it stayed in place.
Obviously we need to look harder!
 
bograt

bograt

Active member
This thread raises a few questions, for instance what is the optimum distance for a prusik stage? also would like suggestions on how to re-belay GG main chamber?- places like Nettle would be easy--.
 
T

topcat

Active member
bograt said:
This thread raises a few questions, for instance what is the optimum distance for a prusik stage? also would like suggestions on how to re-belay GG main chamber?- places like Nettle would be easy--.
Click to expand...

Obviously you would not do GG main chamber: it is a naturally long drop !!! o_O
 
bograt

bograt

Active member
topcat said:
bograt said:
This thread raises a few questions, for instance what is the optimum distance for a prusik stage? also would like suggestions on how to re-belay GG main chamber?- places like Nettle would be easy--.
Click to expand...

Obviously you would not do GG main chamber: it is a naturally long drop !!! o_O
Click to expand...

Can't understand the headbanging emoticon, it has been done on wood & rope ladders in the past !!--
 
pwhole

pwhole

Well-known member
Working in north Derbyshire a lot, I tend to think of 50m as roughly one 'shaft unit', as many of the venues are about that depth, with a few obvious exceptions. When we've been working in JH a lot, the last person down generally rigged the rebelay, as Sam mentioned, to speed things up on the way out, and I find about 25m is a good separation distance - not enough to get too tired, and keeps it interesting for everyone as you're not sitting at the base watching the beetles for long. We used the throughbolt on the south wall as it's a better hang, but that is really showing its age now - a nice pair of 'official' resin bolts there would be great, and would possibly then make the other single resin bolt on the north wall a bit more helpful too.

A deviation from the north wall a few metres above the shaft base would also be great, as I always bang my head on the overhang from prussicking too fast. I've refrained from modifying public pitches though, as it's something that clearly needs to be discussed first. Stuff we've opened up obviously is at our discretion. I love that hook hanger too - can you still get those?
 
Mark Wright

Mark Wright

Active member
From memory I think we installed 5 re-belays on the Rowter Hole entrance shaft in order to speed things up. Mainly so we could get a good evenings digging in and still all get out in time for the pub. Eldon Hole is currently rigged similarly.

You could always tandem up the free hanging pitches, or, as I remember doing with Graham Proudlove and (I think) Pitlamp, many years ago, all three of us came up the free hanging Rowter Hole entrance shaft at the same time. First and third man moving together with the middle man resting until the first and third rested and the middle man climbed. Not always so easy getting off at the top though with loads of weight on the rope.

Mark

 
bograt

bograt

Active member
So that equates to about 14meters a stage (40 to 50 feet), I think this is reasonable -- comments?--

While we are on the subject, there must be an optimum between ladder versus SRT, for instance I cannot understand why people think the first pitch in P8 is a SRT pitch---
 
C

Chocolate fireguard

Active member
bograt said:
I cannot understand why people think the first pitch in P8 is a SRT pitch---
Click to expand...

Perhaps because you can stay dry(ish) by rigging a short pitch and swinging over to rig the traverse?
Surely hanging a ladder down a waterfall when there is a safer alternative can't be right.
 
paul

paul

Moderator
Chocolate fireguard said:
bograt said:
I cannot understand why people think the first pitch in P8 is a SRT pitch---
Click to expand...

Perhaps because you can stay dry(ish) by rigging a short pitch and swinging over to rig the traverse?
Surely hanging a ladder down a waterfall when there is a safer alternative can't be right.
Click to expand...

Plus if you're kitted up to do Geology Pot and are bringing a lifeline for Garlands Pot anyway, you might as well rig Garlands as an SRT pitch. If you are only doing the "round trip" then in that case it does make sense to rig Garlands Pot with a ladder (I have done both Garlands and Geology using ladders in the past).
 
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