Caving as a potential PE activity?

Rachel

Rachel

Active member
I went to an open afternoon at my daughter's school this afternoon, where the teachers were giving out a lot of info about GCSE options. It seems that for GCSE PE, a lot of outdoor activities undertaken out of school can be assessed to count as part of the course, including climbing, canoeing, mountain biking, skiing...but not caving.

Is this something that BCA reps would be willing to take up with the exam boards?

What do other cavers think?

PS - it certainly isn't due to lack of awareness of caving as an activity - her school is within walking distance of the 3 counties system!
 
Pete K

Pete K

Well-known member
I think the best person to talk to is Nigel Ball the BCA Training Officer. I think that there are already ideas to introduce a kid's caving award system so he may well be able to help with GCSE compatibility.
 
Slug

Slug

Member
My Niece has just started that type of course at school, and I am trying to arrange a meeting with the schools P.E dept. about caving, I'll let you know what the reaction is when I've done it.
Though to be fair rural Bedfordshire is about as far away from any UK caving area I don't hold out much hope of success.

Ian.
 
R

r_walklate@hotmail.com

New member
GCSE PE is something I deliver and currently trying to advertise. It's good quality work generally with young people who are motivated and capable. It's down to examining boards opposed to the BCA involvement. The frameworks for GCSE are slightly differing between examining boards, the problem with GCSE PE is schools are so focused on maths and English that they are reluctant to let kids out of school to pursue PE.

The fact the BCA are only considering a children's award shows how far behind they are regarding other governing bodies. It was something I was keen to pursue but found a few had tried and got tied up him politics.

 
Stu

Stu

Active member
Rachel said:
I went to an open afternoon at my daughter's school this afternoon, where the teachers were giving out a lot of info about GCSE options. It seems that for GCSE PE, a lot of outdoor activities undertaken out of school can be assessed to count as part of the course, including climbing, canoeing, mountain biking, skiing...but not caving.

Is this something that BCA reps would be willing to take up with the exam boards?

What do other cavers think?

PS - it certainly isn't due to lack of awareness of caving as an activity - her school is within walking distance of the 3 counties system!
Click to expand...

Part of the problem with caving is there isn't a recognisable grade system such as in climbing (sport grades or trad), mountain biking and skiing (red, blue, black etc), athletics (distance, time, height etc);or a method to demonstrate skills i.e. football, rugby, to score or grade a students work.

Of course there are grades of cave but they don't bear up to a comparison to something like climbing for example (where students can score quite high marks for leading relatively easy sports routes Fr5).

That said schools could if memory serves, ask for obscure sports to be put forward to the exam qualifying organisations for schemes to be recognised.

A bigger battle might be that there appears to be a threat, by the Dept. of Ed. to shift the balance of theory/activity within P.E. from 60/40 to 70/30.
 
R

r_walklate@hotmail.com

New member
I don't think the grading system is an issue. The frameworks tend to focus on the ability to do things without making mistakes, the more mistakes (lack of skill) the lower the grade. Brutally honest a lot of PE teachers see Outdoor Ed as quick wins for those who don't always achieve in school disciplines.

I do however think there is a lot of scope for GCSE caving and would love to be part of building it!! Broken down into a few short sessions and then an 'assessment day' is a good way to work. Cost can also be a barrier as it requires a specialist person.

 
Stu

Stu

Active member
r_walklate said:
I don't think the grading system is an issue. The frameworks tend to focus on the ability to do things without making mistakes, the more mistakes (lack of skill) the lower the grade. Brutally honest a lot of PE teachers see Outdoor Ed as quick wins for those who don't always achieve in school disciplines.

I do however think there is a lot of scope for GCSE caving and would love to be part of building it!! Broken down into a few short sessions and then an 'assessment day' is a good way to work. Cost can also be a barrier as it requires a specialist person.
Click to expand...

The grading systems within a lot of sports is exactly the quick win you mention which is why caving would require an altogether more abstract means of "grading" performance - there has to be a proportional mark based on performance, as you say. Football, rugby, tennis etc are all quite easy to mark on form (put them through drills, get them on a coaching scheme etc). Not so sure caving could be.

Of course it would be brilliant if it could be, but these are the hurdles that will be put up, so investigating the answers and responses and making them irrefutable will be key.

 
R

r_walklate@hotmail.com

New member
Of course it would be brilliant if it could be, but these are the hurdles that will be put up, so investigating the answers and responses and making them irrefutable will be key.

A journey I may embark on it would be great to role this out and be an ambassador for it, not that anyone knows who I am!!! Getting kids to do GCSE caving would be great, government need to recognise that some need to achieve in other ways than written exams.
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
From experience working with youth groups my feeling is that it will not happen, for many reasons - sufficiently numerous and arduous to explain in typing (it would be a TL:DR response). The paperwork hurdles alone would probably result in most people losing the will to live.

A brief example would be this: first of all I'm guessing that 15 year olds would be studying GCSE; how are they going to (a) get insured (b) join a club (isn't this still the traditional/BCA recommended route into caving) (c) have acceptable changing facilities (d) have an acceptable accredited adult (presumably at little or no cost) overseeing them/mentoring/guiding/teaching etc.?

Having some kind of written framework for assessment could have an unintended consequence of ushering in the dreaded "Certificate for Caving" that so many have worried about for decades past; the paranoia of that alone could debately result in the powers that be nipping it in the bud, by dint of inaction on the part of the various voluntary bodies that might oversee it in its infancy.

Better sticking to GCSE PE in cycling, walking, breathing, texting, World of Warcraft (or whatever).
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Not short-sighted at all. Thanks for the misrepresentation.  I've been working with children caving for about fifteen years and it is therefore something I have spent "a bit" of time contemplating and involved in. Caving is definitely a potential PE activity. It won't become one, though. It'll just remain potential. Paperwork will kill the idea.

However, I could be wrong. But having tried (and failed) to get a bespoke Caving Award for School(s) up and running (killed by paperwork/lack of political will - Schools', not BCA) over many years, I would welcome being proved wrong - good luck, whoever takes it on.
 
martinm

martinm

New member
Unfortunately, I suspect the Cap'n is right, which is a shame. Maybe BCA should look at this, maybe a new working group to encourage new people into the sport and teach best practices, etc. (I am aware of the trycaving web site.)

Maybe if BCA got more involved in this then maybe LEA's etc. might be more inclined to listening to them. (BCA.) This reminds me a bit of the CRoW discussions,  :-\ but I think it's an important one. It needs representation from our national body...

Maybe another referendum consulting it's members? (Serious.)

What do you think?
 
Stu

Stu

Active member
Chris, your post is pretty telling and also contradictory.

On one hand you express surprise that such a subject should exist (sic - really?) and comparing it to being no better than playing a pc game.

The nation faces an epidemic of obesity and health related problems associated with being overweight. PE students engage in a subject that has a strong underpinning of theory including nutrition, anatomy, physiology etc. It's not given out and some of the performances of the students is outstanding.

But then perception has always been the number one barrier and hurdle the subject has had to face. Pity there isn't more of a Classical attitude towards the subject.


 
M

maxb727

Member
I did GCSE PE about 12 years ago and we had climbing as part of that. I don't see why caving would be impossible all around the country, some schools already have caving clubs, Millfield is an example (private school but they go caving with school) - where there is a will there is a way, even if it takes a while to get there
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
The staff at my local gym (attached to a comprehensive school) probably have degrees in sports/fitness. They are obese. More obese than the people being referred to the gym by their GPs. Speaks volumes. Perhaps.
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Yes, Maxb727. Millfield runs its own in-house caving. Another local (private) school, Sidcot, buys in a packaged Caving Club experience from an outdoor pursuits supplier. It is possible, but it costs ???. Therefore it's not going to float across the board in comprehensive school(s). There might be a school lucky enough to have a member of staff sufficiently motivated and capable to make something like this happen, but to think it can be tick-boxed into existence is unlikely, imo.
 
P

Peter Burgess

New member
At risk of going off topic, I believe it is shown that exercise has little effect on obesity - it's a dietary thing actually. I personally would not want children growing up thinking that caving is simply a physical activity. It is only one aspect of the pastime, and I would not want to see youngsters being taught that caves are simply obstacle courses.
 
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