SERIOUS DAMAGE IN GIANTS HOLE

Daryl Godfrey reported to DCA on 6th. April that there had been serious and deliberate vandalism in Giants Hole - the affected area is the terminal chamber of Wet Inlets.  This is an area which is not particularly easy to access since it involves a climb and squeezes and so is probably beyond the scope of ?punters? with a head torch.
The vandals have apparently used a rock to break off metre-long sections of stal, which have smashed on hitting the floor.  Other formations from the same chamber have been snapped off and removed, leaving a scene of destruction in what was once a hidden gem.  Daryl comments that the chamber floor ?? is a scene of calcite genocide ??.  Giants Hole is an SSSI, and so protected by law, and is also one of the caves being monitored by cavers on behalf of Natural England.  Some of the stal. in Giants has been dated and is being specifically monitored and NE are anxious to establish whether the damage affects any of these crucial areas.
We are appealing to all cavers to help us catch the culprits so we need to know, if possible, on what date the damage was done.  Dave Webb, DCA Conservation Officer, will be collating information so please contact Dave direct (or Daryl) if you have any information.
If you have visited that area of Giants recently and have seen the affected area undamaged, please could you contact Dave and/or Daryl to give them the date.  Equally, if you have seen the area after it was damaged, please also give us the date.  That will help us narrow it down.  We also need photographs taken of the intact chamber to establish exactly what has been broken or removed.
Contact: Dave Webb:  via  http://www.thedca.org.uk
or    Daryl Godfrey:  via. www.acclimbatize.co.uk
Thanks for your help. 

Jenny Potts,
Hon. Sec. Derbyshire Caving Association

I sincerely hope these scumbags are caught sooner rather than later. 

That's awful 

It's worth keeping at the back of everyone's minds that it is possible to repair speleothems. In case it's possible to do some repairs in future make sure that as much of the debris is retained. This might mean it's justified to remove it from the cave in the meantime so it's not lost. Some repair is best done outside the cave anyway. The sooner all the bits are accounted for the better.

Pitlamp is right. It is essential that all the debris is kept so that repairs can by affected.

Can I just point out, however, that this is one of the major reasons why caving is very different from fell walking or canoeing when it comes to the right to roam.

*sigh* I so knew that was coming. You know, if I was a conspiracy theorist I'd suspect a rabid "caves should be closed and only cavers with a note from their parents and a leader chained to them should be allowed underground" type had done the damage to make a point.

Good job I'm not then isn't it. 

graham said:

Pitlamp is right. It is essential that all the debris is kept so that repairs can by affected.

Can I just point out, however, that this is one of the major reasons why caving is very different from fell walking or canoeing when it comes to the right to roam.

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Weak. The only way to stop this damage (or any damage - think Right Unconquerable on Stanage or countless other examples) is to stop ALL access.

Not wishing to put a damner on your hopes of catching the perpetrators but don't rely on the police and the CPS for a prosecution. When somebody smashed formations in Swildons the authorities were unable (or unwilling) to pursue the suspects through the courts even with positive id's and a reasonable continuity of evidence.

stu said:

graham said:

Pitlamp is right. It is essential that all the debris is kept so that repairs can by affected.

Can I just point out, however, that this is one of the major reasons why caving is very different from fell walking or canoeing when it comes to the right to roam.

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Weak. The only way to stop this damage (or any damage - think Right Unconquerable on Stanage or countless other examples) is to stop ALL access.

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Not so. I can think of numerous caves where access has been permitted under restrictions for many years without any such damage having occurred.

Les W said:

Not wishing to put a damner on your hopes of catching the perpetrators but don't rely on the police and the CPS for a prosecution. When somebody smashed formations in Swildons the authorities were unable (or unwilling) to pursue the suspects through the courts even with positive id's and a reasonable continuity of evidence.

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Even if a prosecution cannot be delivered every effort must be made to catch the parties concerned and make it clear that any form of crime is unacceptable.

hydrophobia said:

Les W said:

Not wishing to put a damner on your hopes of catching the perpetrators but don't rely on the police and the CPS for a prosecution. When somebody smashed formations in Swildons the authorities were unable (or unwilling) to pursue the suspects through the courts even with positive id's and a reasonable continuity of evidence.

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Even if a prosecution cannot be delivered every effort must be made to catch the parties concerned and make it clear that any form of crime is unacceptable.

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Serious question, not just a moan: how would you do that, if the police are uninterested in helping? What other sanctions are available to us?

graham said:

Not so. I can think of numerous caves where access has been permitted under restrictions for many years without any such damage having occurred.

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Like er... Lancaster Hole?

Further note for information.  It seems Daryl made the dicovery on 3rd. April but didn't notify DCA immediately as he wanted to check whether it had been posted on the HnH notice board.  Checking dates by other people who may have been in the area or seen/heard something will help.

The damage will be photographed exactly as it is in the first instance.  We want to match this, if possible, with any photos of the undamaged site so that we can see what may have already been removed as it's thought that some formations may have been taken away by the vandals.  Once we know exactly what we are dealing with it may be possible to do some reconstruction.  Points noted re. how to do it off site - thanks.

On another point, Giants is an SSSI, and thus protected by law, and there are fairly stiff penalties for anyone damaging an SSSI.  We are already working with Natural England, who are aware of the situation and have expressed their great concern.

Jenny P.

Jenny P said:

On another point, Giants is an SSSI, and thus protected by law, and there are fairly stiff penalties for anyone damaging an SSSI.  We are already working with Natural England, who are aware of the situation and have expressed their great concern.

Jenny P.

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Just further to my point earlier, Swildons is also an SSSI. The authorities decided there was not enough substansive evidence for a prosecution. I hope you catch them, but unless you can catch them with the bits in their hands and their fingerprints at the scene, I don't reckon you will get a prosecution.

Les W said:

Jenny P said:

On another point, Giants is an SSSI, and thus protected by law, and there are fairly stiff penalties for anyone damaging an SSSI.  We are already working with Natural England, who are aware of the situation and have expressed their great concern.

Jenny P.

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Just further to my point earlier, Swildons is also an SSSI. The authorities decided there was not enough substansive evidence for a prosecution. I hope you catch them, but unless you can catch them with the bits in their hands and their fingerprints at the scene, I don't reckon you will get a prosecution.

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Possibly not, Les. But a well publicised going through the motions of getting the vandals prosecuted might deter anyone else who may be thinking of doing something similar even if the Police don't carry it through.

graham said:

Pitlamp is right. It is essential that all the debris is kept so that repairs can by affected.

Can I just point out, however, that this is one of the major reasons why caving is very different from fell walking or canoeing when it comes to the right to roam.

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Groan....but as was pointed out in the origianl post, this was not done by casual walkers. It was done by cavers, as this is not a simple place to get to (or even to know about)

So how would the "right to roam" have affected that then?

This cave has an access agreement and a fee is payable. Hasn't protected it has it?

Its these stupid idiots who spoil it for the rest of us. But I really do not think restricting access would help as if they were so intent on doing the damage as it seems they were, I hardly think they would bothered by not having a permit nor would a gate bother them, as there are various tools out there they could use like they probably used on those stalls.

All we can do is try and prosecute and repair the damage that is done.

As someone said the only way to prevent it is to prevent ALL access by cementing the entrance and therefor no one would ever see the darn things so that would be like chopping a hand off to get a leg.

paul said:

Les W said:

Jenny P said:

On another point, Giants is an SSSI, and thus protected by law, and there are fairly stiff penalties for anyone damaging an SSSI.  We are already working with Natural England, who are aware of the situation and have expressed their great concern.

Jenny P.

Click to expand...

Just further to my point earlier, Swildons is also an SSSI. The authorities decided there was not enough substansive evidence for a prosecution. I hope you catch them, but unless you can catch them with the bits in their hands and their fingerprints at the scene, I don't reckon you will get a prosecution.

Click to expand...

Possibly not, Les. But a well publicised going through the motions of getting the vandals prosecuted might deter anyone else who may be thinking of doing something similar even if the Police don't carry it through.

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We actually knew who had done it, descriptions, people observed in the vicinity, drinks cans, etc. Police/CPS decided that there was not enough evidence to put them in court. 

This was Tratmans so some distance in as well. Scumbags like these only understand one language  :spank:

They were known criminals, witnessed during the evening deep inside the cave by members of the Avon & Somerset Constabulary Caving Club (while in the cave), they left DNA evidence on cigarette/reefer ends plus cans, plus they were seen drunk/stoned in the cave by other cavers, and they dropped a wallet with a photo ID in the barn afterwards. The damage was noted first thing the following morning. A comprehensive dossier of photographs, witness statements, evidence etc. was provided and the case was one of "criminal damage"; despite the local police being very helpful and upbeat, CPS dismissed it on the grounds of reasonable doubt and the police pretty much summed it up by saying that unless we had CCTV of the damage being caused by recognisable faces then it was a non-starter. A huge amount of effort went into it.

It makes you wonder why you bother. What's the point of an SSSI if you can for all intents carry on with impunity?