Good old Ecrin-Roc

Andy Sparrow

Active member
I emerged from a crawl yesterday as my friend climbed a rift above me.    A foothold unexpectedly gave way and a lump about the size and weight of a 6 pack of baked beans dropped about 2 metres onto the back of my helmet.  The helmet, an Ecrin-Roc, absorbed the impact very effectively without pain or injury to me, and without any observable damage to the shell or cradle.  I am doubtful that an Elios/Spelios shell would have survived the impact although one hopes that the internal polystyrene buffer would have done its job and prevented injury - the caver should survive but the helmet might well be consigned to the dustbin.

I shall continue to be an Ecrin-Roc user.

Anybody else out there had any similar experiences?
 

IanWalker

Active member
I dropped mine down the 25m Slit Pot in Simpson Pot; no noticeable damage to helmet and the light still worked!
 

Roger W

Well-known member
Ah, but are they still safe to use after this sort of maltreatment?

That is to say, will they still give the required degree of protection if another rock falls onto your bonce?
 

Amy

New member
I think the Ecrin-Rocs are supposed to hold up to multiple impacts...personally I don't like how they fit (aka fall off to the sides of  my head worse than my Elia, which I wear a bandana with now to make my head big enough for the smallest setting). I'm not sure I would trust my head to *any* helmet that took an impact though. I only get one brain haha.

Glad to hear it worked well and you are fine! :)
 

george

Member
Shameless Plug: -

I've got 10+ of them for sale if anyone's interested!!!! They're all well used but have never suffered any major impacts like the one mentioned above. I think they all have the lamp brackets on the front.
?5 each???

They are going on ebay when I get round to it, but feel free to make me an offer.

George
 

Amy

New member
messaged you, i could use a second helmet around for when I can't wash my gear between caves (WNS decon is required for many access permits now) and in 2 weeks I need a loaner too!
 

ian.p

Active member
ive always been a fan of the old caving suplies protex helmets my curant ones been hit by numerous rocks ranging from fist sized to probably about a 4 pack of baked beans from around 7 meters still no evidence of anything other than superficial scraping. they might be heavy but theres somthing comforting about them a bit like having a viking sheild above youre head you can hide behind them! shame theyre not made anymore otherwise id probably of retired mine some time ago :-[ ...
 

Andy Sparrow

Active member
ian.p said:
ive always been a fan of the old caving suplies protex helmets my curant ones been hit by numerous rocks ranging from fist sized to probably about a 4 pack of baked beans from around 7 meters still no evidence of anything other than superficial scraping. they might be heavy but theres somthing comforting about them a bit like having a viking sheild above youre head you can hide behind them! shame theyre not made anymore otherwise id probably of retired mine some time ago :-[ ...

There were good helmets but too hot for me.  I can't bear an unventilated helmet.  The Protex used the same shell as the Edelrid Untralite but without the vent holes (!) and fitted with Caving Supplies own cradle. 

Protex may be gone but Edelrid Ultralite lives on (lives and breathes). Please excuse the blatantly commercial link but it is relevant:

http://www.thecavingandclimbingshop.com/epages/BT3421.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/BT3421/Products/edelridultralite/SubProducts/edelridultralite-0001
 

george

Member
Ok, follow-up to the shameless plug but also an embarassing admission!
I got the helmets out of stores this morning and my memory seems to have failed me - they are not Ecrin Rocs at all but the old Caving Supplies Protex Helmets!!!  :-[

Now I feel silly but they are still up for grabs.

I have 12, green, very scratched but not structurally damaged Protex helmets. All dated '98/'99 with a lamp bracket on the front.

?5 each, pick up from Thirsk/Northallerton or somewhere in the Dales when get over that way. Postage, I would guesstimate at about a fiver.

George
 

Burt

New member
I did a very un-scientific test on an old protex once. Put it on the garage floor with an old egg box underneath  and whacked it, hard as I could, with a 5lb sledgehammer.

Boiiinnnggg! The sledge bounced off and the eggbox was unharmed.

Thinking about it though, if a head was inside and undamaged, what would the state of the neck vertabrae be like?
 

Amy

New member
I googled Protex and couldn't find them?

As far as for neck vertebrae they can compress to absorb impact a certain extent just fine due to the structure of the spine. If over-compressed though, compression fractures can occur and would likely cause general neck/back pain until healed (really nothing to be done, could wear a brace if it helps). If the damage is severe, a vertebroplasty can be done which is basically adding a special "cement" to stabilize the vertebrae. A lot of fractures are actually due to hyperflexation and hence tend to affect C6 and surrounding 5/7 the most. The angle would probably play a role here I'd think, a straight down impact likely would be better absorbed as if at an angle (say you whoopsied and looked up when someone yelled ROCK! and got hit with the neck on an angle) it would hyperflexate more rather than just compress and absorb. </what I learned from neuroanatomy>
 

Ed W

Member
I vaguely recall watching a lecture at the BCRA conference by Graham Proudlove into helmet impact testing in the early 1990s.  One of the main parts of his testing was to measure the forces transmitted to the neck with various makes of helmet of various ages.  If I remember rightly the old style foam lined Joe Brown and Ultimate climbing helmets came out of this very well compared to the newer plastic shelled helmets such as the CS Protex and Petzl Vertical.  Another stated advantage of the fibreglass helmets was that as they absorbed energy by delamination of the shell it was very obvious that the hat had sustained a heavy blow - it looked very damaged and as such very likely to be replaced.  In the case of the plastic shell helmets this was not the case, the helmets did not appear to be badly damaged, but in fact distortion of the internal bits  and pieces meant that their ability to absorb further energy was severely reduced.  Perhaps it is time for someone to do a similar study on the current crop of helmets use din caving?

PS:  I have to confess that it was I who dislodged the rock onto Andy's head that spurred this debate.  It is an act of which I am not proud, and feel that I must atone for - as such I will ensure that my aim is far better next time!

PPS:  Sorry Andy, I couldn't resist it, and its not like I came out of the trip unscathed either.
 

Amy

New member
Hey, rocks happen. Someone has a photo of a rock falling in...some pit I want to say Natural Well but I could be wrong, here. No one *knew* there was a rockfall (they were rappelling but it happened on the side they were not rigged on) until he was looking at his photos and "holyshit BOULDER FALLING"!!!! captured midfall in the photo!
 

Penguin

New member
One of the injuries i've managed to inflict upon myself while caving was a neck injury. 

I misjudged a ceiling while crouching to go into a crawl, moving forward fairly briskly at the same time, and hit the top of my head towards the back.  The impact went straight into my neck, and was enough to stop me for a few minutes.  About 10 minutes later i felt fine and continued in and out of the cave.  That night though my neck seized up and it took over a week to return to loose the stiffness and pain.  Even now it's not as it was and occassionally a knock on the ceiling gives me pause for thought that i've aggravated the old injury.  Anyway, the impact wasn't enough to damage the helmet in any way (Petzl Elios). 

I'm sure the forces in rockfall will be higher, but it might appear that a lot depends on the angle and point of impact as to how well - or not - your neck might come out of it.  But i suppose there's also some energy lost in the rebound of the rock, whereas a ceiling doesn't recoil as much as a caver....  o_O
 

pete h

New member
Ed W said:
PS:  I have to confess that it was I who dislodged the rock onto Andy's head that spurred this debate.  It is an act of which I am not proud, and feel that I must atone for - as such I will ensure that my aim is far better next time!

PPS:  Sorry Andy, I couldn't resist it, and its not like I came out of the trip unscathed either.


Ed

Message on behalf of the hit squad

contract unsucessfull, you will not be paid, 50% reduction on fee for second attempt.

The Boulder Cruncher.
 

Roger W

Well-known member
Ed W said:
...  Another stated advantage of the fibreglass helmets was that as they absorbed energy by delamination of the shell it was very obvious that the hat had sustained a heavy blow - it looked very damaged and as such very likely to be replaced.  In the case of the plastic shell helmets this was not the case, the helmets did not appear to be badly damaged, but in fact distortion of the internal bits  and pieces meant that their ability to absorb further energy was severely reduced.  Perhaps it is time for someone to do a similar study on the current crop of helmets used in caving?

That's exactly it, Ed.  I first came across this problem back in my motorcycling days, when some folk were inclined to stress that a helmet that had received any sort of serious impact should be replaced, even if it looked OK.  Those were fibreglass shells, of course.

Another question is how far surface damage - scratches and things, such as George's old Protex lids seem to be suffering from - can weaken the helmet shell.

I admit most of the bumps a caving helmet gets are probably minor ones, but Penguin's example shows that even a self-inflicted impact with the roof can be pretty serious.  That's apart from scenarios like when some nerd tosses a rock into Gaping Gill, say, "to see how deep it is" when you happen to be standing at the bottom...

OK - a can of worms here, I suppose.  I know the lidmakers would be happy for us to buy a new helmet every time we go caving - but I can't see Yorkshire cavers, at any rate, being happy about that!
 
Many moons ago we did the unscientific test to destruction of some old telalex helmets - took a surprising amount of  effort!

I'm still an avid fan of the Ecrin - but also have a Petzl Meteor (for climbing etc.) The guidance on the meteor includes this gem

Warning, because of its design, this helmet is vulnerable to damage from
improper care. Do not sit on it, pack it too tightly, drop it, allow it to contact sharp
or pointed objects, etc.


God only know what would happen if a rock fell on me - I mean if I can damage an helmet by dropping it or just shoving it too vigorously into my pack .....
 

Graigwen

Active member
Amy said:
As far as for neck vertebrae they can compress to absorb impact a certain extent just fine due to the structure of the spine. If over-compressed though, compression fractures can occur and would likely cause general neck/back pain until healed (really nothing to be done, could wear a brace if it helps). </what I learned from neuroanatomy>

A friend contrived to slip on the bottom couple of my stairs on Monday morning. She fell forward on soft carpet.

The result was a fracture of the third cervical vertebrae, attributed to extension of the neck on impact.



.
 

Roger W

Well-known member
Rapid motion (the fall) followed by body stopping suddenly  (ground impact) and head continuing to move?

Makes you think, though!

Hope she recovers OK.
 
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