K
kabot
Guest
Just wondering, Do carbide lamps affect the air quality down caves.
cap n chris
Well-known member
You should ask Neil Moss*.
Carbide lamps are mostly frowned upon in the south although have a strong tradition of usage in the north and overseas on expeditions but LEDs are beginning to catch up in popularity (due to their longevity of light output). With carbide, since there's an exothermic reaction going on they do have the added feature of generating welcome warmth on v.cold trips but the flame can generate soot which gradually accumulates on surfaces, slowly and inisidiously blackening them**. Carbide is banned from many pretty caves for this reason, and the arbitrary and widespread dumping of polluting waste, plus and the flames leave blackened trails in low section roofs. Put simply, if you're interested in the Petzl Ariane or other carbide lamp "cos' it makes a pretty, cosy light underground" just remember..... Don't do it! - they're more kerfuffle than they're worth (now sit back and watch me being shot down in flames (no pun intended) by die-hard flame-lovers).
* Sincere apologies to friends/relatives.
** Check out the Speleo Avalon conservation slide show for pictures showing just this problem - details on this thread:
http://www.ukcaving.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=1202&view=previous&sid=ea92a801638e0ef405a7abb48ce18d3c
Carbide lamps are mostly frowned upon in the south although have a strong tradition of usage in the north and overseas on expeditions but LEDs are beginning to catch up in popularity (due to their longevity of light output). With carbide, since there's an exothermic reaction going on they do have the added feature of generating welcome warmth on v.cold trips but the flame can generate soot which gradually accumulates on surfaces, slowly and inisidiously blackening them**. Carbide is banned from many pretty caves for this reason, and the arbitrary and widespread dumping of polluting waste, plus and the flames leave blackened trails in low section roofs. Put simply, if you're interested in the Petzl Ariane or other carbide lamp "cos' it makes a pretty, cosy light underground" just remember..... Don't do it! - they're more kerfuffle than they're worth (now sit back and watch me being shot down in flames (no pun intended) by die-hard flame-lovers).
* Sincere apologies to friends/relatives.
** Check out the Speleo Avalon conservation slide show for pictures showing just this problem - details on this thread:
http://www.ukcaving.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=1202&view=previous&sid=ea92a801638e0ef405a7abb48ce18d3c
SamT
Moderator
Have to concure with Capt on that one. In general - I;d like to see the use of carbide reduced to expeditions (where charging facilities are not available and long periods are spent underground re mexico, cuetzalan trip - 9 days was it lads).
It does give a great light, and the warmth thing is a factor. Though if you are relying on your carbide to keep you warm - you've got to ask yourself some questions about your clothing.
So in anwser to your question. Yes carbide does affect air quality, Does damage caves and is a complete pain in the arse if your crawling a lot or the cave is very wet cause it keeps going out.
Personally - I cant justify the use of carbide in the UK apart from some exceptional circumstances.
It does give a great light, and the warmth thing is a factor. Though if you are relying on your carbide to keep you warm - you've got to ask yourself some questions about your clothing.
So in anwser to your question. Yes carbide does affect air quality, Does damage caves and is a complete pain in the arse if your crawling a lot or the cave is very wet cause it keeps going out.
Personally - I cant justify the use of carbide in the UK apart from some exceptional circumstances.
M
MSD
Guest
I agree. I used carbide all the time for years, but now I find myself caving just on LEDs more and more often. If I was starting caving now I would definitely not buy a carbide light. Cost, convenience and environmental problems all weigh against carbide. Not being able to take carbide on aeroplanes is also a nuisance.
However, don't forget to recycle your batteries properly! Old batteries are pretty nasty and need to be disposed of in the right way. If you have rechargeables this is less of an issue but still needs to be thought about.
Carbide "needed on remote expeditions" is a red herring. Your average LED light uses less weight of non-rechargeable batteries than a carbide light uses weight of carbide for a given number of hours light.
That being said, I do like the light from a carbide light....so I take it out now and again for old times sake.
Mark
However, don't forget to recycle your batteries properly! Old batteries are pretty nasty and need to be disposed of in the right way. If you have rechargeables this is less of an issue but still needs to be thought about.
Carbide "needed on remote expeditions" is a red herring. Your average LED light uses less weight of non-rechargeable batteries than a carbide light uses weight of carbide for a given number of hours light.
That being said, I do like the light from a carbide light....so I take it out now and again for old times sake.
Mark
cap n chris
Well-known member
These expressions always seem to jump out at me and make me raise an eyebrow and smile.
D
Dave H
Guest
Clunk - bugger! - Click, click click - light for a few seconds
In a crawl they go out nearly every time you hit the generator on the rock, which is a very regular occurance.
Plus, the enjoyment of black snot!
You know you don't really want to do it.
In a crawl they go out nearly every time you hit the generator on the rock, which is a very regular occurance.
Plus, the enjoyment of black snot!
You know you don't really want to do it.
Stupot
Active member
I know that Kabot IS NOT GETTING A CARBIDE LAMP as i have also convinced him that they are not the way forward for general caving trips, i think he is asking the question after we passed a group coming out and they had a few carbides between them, the remainder of our exit Kabot was commenting on the stench and air quality (think he's just unfit really).
They do give off a great light and they do have their place on expeditions, but i think with today's technology (LED's) they should gracefully retire.
And as SamT said if you are using them for warmth then i think you have more important issues towards clothing.
Stu.
They do give off a great light and they do have their place on expeditions, but i think with today's technology (LED's) they should gracefully retire.
And as SamT said if you are using them for warmth then i think you have more important issues towards clothing.
Stu.
cap n chris
Well-known member
If it was recently and in Swildon's he's not unfit, the air is still noticeably crap down there. I await Winter/Autumn storms and lots of water to flush it through - roll on heavy weather!.....
K
kabot
Guest
Stupot is right im UNFIT at the moment but a few more trips down swildons and stupot will be chewing on his own words.
SamT
Moderator
MSD said:
Hmm - still not sure about this one. Im not really an expedition caver but Ive spoken to plenty who reckon that they are always glad to have carbide on board. Not just for light. They were boiling water with their lamps in Mexico when stuck in Alpazat. Your not going to manage that with LEDS!!
There comes a point where the weight saved from carrying batteries rather than a generator and sufficient carbide for many days underground (especially for a group of cavers) would be enough to carry some kind of stove, or otherwise increase survival/comfort kit.
For clamp-between-the-thighs warmth, carbide *is* there without any need for extra planning, but you'd have to be doing some planning to even carry in a container to boil water *in*.
Certainly, you can't boil water on LEDs, though I've never had close caving mates who have needed to, *and* been carrying a convenient pan; but equally, you aren't likely to end up with your helmet on fire by using them either, which I have known happen more than once to carbide-using mates, along with many close shaves with flaming gaspipes that were put out quickly enough to avoid actual helmet melting.
I have also witnessed several underground explosions that luckily ended up more amusing than harmful.
For clamp-between-the-thighs warmth, carbide *is* there without any need for extra planning, but you'd have to be doing some planning to even carry in a container to boil water *in*.
Certainly, you can't boil water on LEDs, though I've never had close caving mates who have needed to, *and* been carrying a convenient pan; but equally, you aren't likely to end up with your helmet on fire by using them either, which I have known happen more than once to carbide-using mates, along with many close shaves with flaming gaspipes that were put out quickly enough to avoid actual helmet melting.
I have also witnessed several underground explosions that luckily ended up more amusing than harmful.
A
Ant
Guest
kabot said:
I have also been caving with Kabot and he is unfit. The air is not that great but you should have seen him!!! I think it will take a few more trips than he thinks. Lets see what he is like when the real water is there and making his climb out much more strenuous!!
The LED lamps are good for what we do and I think that they are better than the carbide lamps for all the reasons mentioned. However they do give off a good warm glow where as the LEDs tend to give off a whiter light.
C
cucc Paul
Guest
He'll get there, swildons at high water can be daunting especially getting over that lump of calcite at the top of the 20" and he has a coll avatar.
Cave_Troll
Active member
I have wuite a few photos of french caves where the light source was a shaken carbide...
biffa
New member
LEDs are great for somethings but fairly useless when in high water (much like carbide?) or in stonking huge passage. Have to admit that I use LEDs with a halogen bulb when the LEDs aren't bright enough.
If you build yourself a light LED headsets can be cheaper than carbide.
Ohh. How I miss my carbide sometimes.......
If you build yourself a light LED headsets can be cheaper than carbide.
Ohh. How I miss my carbide sometimes.......
AndyF
New member
potholer said:
On a practical note a stove/heating in an emergency situation is of very little importance, other than for morale. If you are stuck you need calories, not a cup of tea! Cold food has just the same calorific content as warm food.
So if you think you may get stuck, carry food, not a stove & fuel. It will always do you more good. Heat generated in the liver is useful to the body, heat lost from a stove to the air is not.
Dried fruit is good, apricots sultanas etc. They absorb water if you need them too, or can be eaten as they are.
If you do need to warm up, carry a dustbin bag and a candle. Cut a hole in the top for your head, and sit, poncho style, over the candle. It is surprisingly efficient.... as long as you don't ignite the dustbin bag, that is..
I'm not sure about the flammability issue. Since it's mainly keeping some draughts off and reducing evaporation, I'd guess that a clear bag and an orange one would be similar in use, though the orange ones are often larger and heavier-duty. I imagine either would melt in a flame
Whatever, a straight plastic bag has definite advantages over a metallised-film reflective one if it's something you're going to carry around for some time.
With wear and tear, especially if the survival bag is in a personal kitbag rather than a helmet, the bag around a metallised-film affair will probably end up getting punctures. If damp gets in, the film doesn't last forever.
I remember sitting in the lime-kiln near the Hill Inn waiting for a lift that was going to take a long time. To amuse ourselves, and try and keep warm, me and my mate tried unpacking our space blankets. Unfortunately, the blanket had stuck itself together, so that trying to open it up resulted in the material tearing at every opportunity. Even being extremely delicate, and trying to pick off stuck material with fingernails as tears started, the largest piece we managed to end up with was about the size of a large handkerchief, and the rest was mainly confetti.
If you were going to replace them very frequently, a space-blanket may be OK, but for something you just wanted to work without the possibility of failure, I'd go for straight plastic every time.
Whatever, a straight plastic bag has definite advantages over a metallised-film reflective one if it's something you're going to carry around for some time.
With wear and tear, especially if the survival bag is in a personal kitbag rather than a helmet, the bag around a metallised-film affair will probably end up getting punctures. If damp gets in, the film doesn't last forever.
I remember sitting in the lime-kiln near the Hill Inn waiting for a lift that was going to take a long time. To amuse ourselves, and try and keep warm, me and my mate tried unpacking our space blankets. Unfortunately, the blanket had stuck itself together, so that trying to open it up resulted in the material tearing at every opportunity. Even being extremely delicate, and trying to pick off stuck material with fingernails as tears started, the largest piece we managed to end up with was about the size of a large handkerchief, and the rest was mainly confetti.
If you were going to replace them very frequently, a space-blanket may be OK, but for something you just wanted to work without the possibility of failure, I'd go for straight plastic every time.
