[gmod]I've split this discussion from "Fusion Knot" http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=14580.0[/gmod]


Do most people rig Y hangs with two loops (whatever the knot)?
I always rig Y hangs with a figure of 8 with the knot at the Y, so there is only one loop. In that way, you can get your hand jammer quite high when getting off the pitch.

Glenn said:

Given that this thread is now 3 pages long, do most people rig Y hangs with two loops (whatever the knot)?
I always rig Y hangs with a figure of 8 with the knot at the Y, so there is only one loop. In that way, you can get your hand jammer quite high when getting off the pitch.

Click to expand...

Depends.

As you get off at a pitch head there is invariably a traverse line to clip in to. If your anchors are high but the step on or off the pitch head is relatively easy and low, it makes sense to double loop as your traverse line is at the height you get on/off. Your way would mean reaching up to attach to the traverse line. (Though there are work arounds with your method too).

Also in descent it means as you get to the last anchor of the traverse line you have to get to below your other knot of your y hang to start your abseil, which requires some extra (minor perhaps) effort. With the double loop system, the traverse line leads you straight to the "last" knot. Easier to see in my head than describe.

Glenn said:

Given that this thread is now 3 pages long, do most people rig Y hangs with two loops (whatever the knot)?
I always rig Y hangs with a figure of 8 with the knot at the Y, so there is only one loop. In that way, you can get your hand jammer quite high when getting off the pitch.

Click to expand...

I don't think I've ever rigged a pitch with a single knot that creates two loops...

Top effort from Damian for the translations, and indeed for starting this whole discussion! Also thanks to Pete for his very good drop test video -- and I really like the analogy of slot machine lemons.

Glenn said:

I always rig Y hangs with a figure of 8 with the knot at the Y, so there is only one loop. In that way, you can get your hand jammer quite high when getting off the pitch.

Click to expand...

A figure-eight isn't really supposed to be loaded in that direction; an alpine butterfly is preferable.

That configuration can be really good, and I like using it -- but it depends on the pitch. The main downside is that you must use an ascender on that section of rope; you cannot safely use a cowstail, because there is only one anchor between your cowstail and the drop.

If the next anchor is within reach, no problem -- clip a cowstail into it. If not, then it's particularly annoying on descent, since you must get out your ascender to progress safely. In practice few people will bother, and therefore the rigging is exposing them to unnecessary danger.

A Y-knot does not have this problem, since the traverse line goes directly to the Y-knot, meaning there are two anchors protecting the caver and cowstails are safe for approaching the pitch head.

Another situation where Y-knots are much better: the pitch anchors are installed high. Only a Y-knot will keep the traverse line at a good height and allow an easy (and safer) approach to the pitch.

Would normally use two loops though occasionally would use one loop with an alpine butterfly, normally in a situation when the two branches of the Y aren't going to be evenly matched because for example one of the rigging points is significantly higher the other.

Personally find it easier to correctly balance the Y hang that way though in fairness it?s not that much more of a chore to adjust a bunny-eared knot so it?s not a written in stone preference.

I tend to use a pair of alpine or caver butterfly knots, if the anchors are high, then rig with a long loop for the first one and the second to suit. I find them easier to tie and better to dress than the variety on twin loop knots available, but thats just me I suppose...

That is the way I used to rig i.e. two aplines or fig8 + alipine and I am going straight back to rigging that way, having seen the problems with bowline. Despite it taking me longer to rig this way.

A Y-knot does not have this problem, since the traverse line goes directly to the Y-knot, meaning there are two anchors protecting the caver and cowstails are safe for approaching the pitch head.

Click to expand...

Unless its a bowline and the caver clips into one loop as he lowers him self down as he could not clip through both loops as it was out of reach. (Would be bad rigging due to the fall factor alone, but I have seen things like this before, mainly on expeditions)

Brains said:

I tend to use a pair of alpine or caver butterfly knots, if the anchors are high, then rig with a long loop for the first one and the second to suit. I find them easier to tie and better to dress than the variety on twin loop knots available, but thats just me I suppose...

Click to expand...

Certainly not just you; I'd do exactly the same.

And taking it to its limiting case of the two butterflies almost touching, you essentially result in the same configuration you'd get with a fig 8 on a bight or bowline on a bight if it suits for the circumstances.

If you should always use a jammer on the single-rope half of a Y hang, should you always use a jammer on the first section of a traverse line (assuming a single bolt start)?

I'm not advocating clipping into the single-rope side - I try and avoid it - but it's just something that sprung to mind.

Alex said:

A Y-knot does not have this problem, since the traverse line goes directly to the Y-knot, meaning there are two anchors protecting the caver and cowstails are safe for approaching the pitch head.

Click to expand...

Unless its a bowline and the caver clips into one loop as he lowers him self down as he could not clip through both loops as it was out of reach. (Would be bad rigging due to the fall factor alone, but I have seen things like this before, mainly on expeditions)

Click to expand...

Struggling to see what you mean Alex.

If you mean approaching a y hang formed with (now infamous!!) BotB, you'd be clipped in to the traverse line and it'd take you straight to the knot formed by the two loops. Not sure how you'd only reach one loop (the death loop!!  ) but not the other... unless I have the stick the wrong way round 

MarkS said:

If you should always use a jammer on the single-rope half of a Y hang, should you always use a jammer on the first section of a traverse line (assuming a single bolt start)?

I'm not advocating clipping into the single-rope side - I try and avoid it - but it's just something that sprung to mind.

Click to expand...

I don't use a jammer in such a situation. I wouldn't use a jammer any time on a traverse line either, though I see where you're coming from re: safeguarding the first bolt failing. This to my mind comes down to some cavers assuming the rope is always the means of progress. Sometimes it's there to just act as a safeguard and clipping in with a cowstail and just pulling yourself up/along might be better. Too many scenarios running through my head to describe every action I might take.

It's why rigging sympathetically and being mindful of the potential dangers is so important. In your instance of a traverse line: if it's not double bolted/anchored and the next bolt is out of reach for me to clip into the next rope loop/bolt, if rigging, I'd tie an intermediate knot on the traverse line to clip into.

Not got time to be involved in debating the pros and cons of various knots or the exact situations in which I use them.
In the past I've rigged with a fi8-on-the-bight (rare) and the death-on-the-bight knot. However my preference has, over recent years, been more alpine butterflies for the y-hang, not sure why exactly, but I just prefer them.

MarkS said:

If you should always use a jammer on the single-rope half of a Y hang, should you always use a jammer on the first section of a traverse line (assuming a single bolt start)?

Click to expand...

That would depend on whether you are exposed to a fall at that place.

A traverse line should be backed up before the risk of a fall is present. If not, a jammer (or better, jammer plus cowstail) is a safer way to cross the first section.

It's why rigging sympathetically and being mindful of the potential dangers is so important. In your instance of a traverse line: if it's not double bolted/anchored and the next bolt is out of reach for me to clip into the next rope loop/bolt, if rigging, I'd tie an intermediate knot on the traverse line to clip into.

Click to expand...

Good point, well made! I like the phrase rigging sympathetically.

death-on-the-bight knot

Click to expand...

Best name ever.

This is an interesting point, that I frequently get asked when teaching people to rig. My answer is complex unfortunately.

In general if the traverse line and shared hang (I prefer this term to Y-hang) anchors are more or less in line (most pitches), then I use a series of butterflies. This is because it makes it much easier to get on and off the pitch and in the event of the last of the traverse line anchors failing, there is less likely to be a  (scary) fall, but a (nice) transfer of loading from that anchor to the surrounding ones. The drawback with a line of butterflies is (as Mike Hopley has said) that a lot of people clip blindly into the rope between the last two knots without thinking about what would happen in the end bolt failed.

If the shared-hang anchors are well above the traverse line bolts (e.g. Valhalla), then I use a bowline on the bight so that the base of the knot is more or less in line with the rest of the traverse line making access to and from easier. We now know that the drawback here is that people need to be careful to clip into both loops of the bowline on the bight.

A third option, that I am now using increasingly with less-experienced groups when the traverse line and shared-hang anchors are more or less in line, is to rig my normal butterfly in the penultimate bolt and then also tie a bowline on the bight and attach it to the penultimate bolt and the last bolt. That provides a staging post down to the base of the BotB (via the butterfly) but gets around the problem of people not protecting themselves. I believe this is the setup generally favoured by a lot of instructors.

Like Brains, butterflies all the way along after a initial bolt with a fig 8, unless it means the knot is distorted and then I'll swap to a fig-8.


In response to Glenns initial post.

Do you mean you rig a single knot and have the loop of that single knot go through the two y-hang bolts?  So using a massive loop? 

damian said:

A third option, that I am now using increasingly with less-experienced groups when the traverse line and shared-hang anchors are more or less in line, is to rig my normal butterfly in the penultimate bolt and then also tie a bowline on the bight and attach it to the penultimate bolt and the last bolt. That provides a staging post down to the base of the BotB (via the butterfly) but gets around the problem of people not protecting themselves. I believe this is the setup generally favoured by a lot of instructors.

Click to expand...

That is a smart trick. Now I have another method to play with -- thanks!

If I understand the problems / methods described correctly then perhaps another thought  :-\

To first answer the loop question:  I rig, though not exclusively, using Alpine Butterfly's for the traverse and for the Y,  all tight, and with the AB's of the Y usually close together.  (Y rebelay = Fig 8 then close AB.  Start of traverse = Fig 8, with the 2nd knot sometimes rigged first as a Bowline, saving krabs, surface interference etc)

My point is that I quite often find I add an AB free loop immediately before a pitch head Y to a) provide a clip in point for my own protection when rigging the Y hang, which can also allow minor rigging adjustment if needed and b) as a convenient unloaded easy clip-in loop for users attaching and detaching from the Y on descent and ascent, as well as an optional clip in point for follower/helper.

Obviously the rigging I choose and any such additional knot placement and its loop length (if any) finally depends on the situation. Fall Factor being one consideration. 

I moved away from rigging a Y using a BotB as my standard as I have never felt comfortable with this knot if only loaded from one of its loops by a cowtail.  Also did not choose the Fig 8 version due to the lay of the traverse rope into the knot when rigging tight.     

Geoff R; my preferred rigging style is very much akin to yours; also using ABs when tutoring rigging makes it less confusing from a newbie's point of view as there are fewer knot types with which to get to grips.

That said, I *do* occasionally use BotB but mostly on exped or in situations where re-adjustment of the knot off opposing walls to provide a clean hang is a probability since the BotB lends itself well to quick and easy alteration.

ianball11 said:

In response to Glenns initial post.

Do you mean you rig a single knot and have the loop of that single knot go through the two y-hang bolts?  So using a massive loop?

Click to expand...

No. I rig to the first anchor of the Y hang, then take a length of the live rope and tie a long looped 8/AB and rig the loop to the second anchor of the Y hang - then adjust the knot accordingly. That gives my a single rope on one side of the Y hang (with a loop to the other side), rather than loops on both sides of the Y hang. In that way, you can clip your hand jammer into the single rope to gain height when getting off the pitch (when ascending). Does that make sense?

Makes sense to me; it uses less rope than the BotB as well and so arguably is more efficient in that regard.

Glenn said:

Do most people rig Y hangs with two loops (whatever the knot)?
I always rig Y hangs with a figure of 8 with the knot at the Y, so there is only one loop. In that way, you can get your hand jammer quite high when getting off the pitch.

Click to expand...

Usually yes, but not always. Always got one eye on potential rescues (paranoid) and one on rigging sympathetically, as Stu describes.