Not working in the outdoor industry, something I would love to ask after reading another thread is >> what questions do Professionals politely ask to profile someone?s potential fitness for caving in advance of meeting them ?? 

- How difficult do you find 10 press ups ?  =  I cant !!
- My age = well over 50
- My occupation = mainly desk bound.
- How difficult do you find walking up a hill =  something I don?t like.
- do you work-out, such as jogging or go to the gym or play any active sports = no

So far it seems it may be best I stay at home gardening 

Seriously - are there questions professionals ask that show up possible anomalies ??
 

Ah, but what activities do you engage in on a regular basis?

Chris ....   

- what activities do you engage in on a regular basis?  =  nothing on a  >regular<  weekly basis 

Cap'n Chris said:

Ah, but what activities do you engage in on a regular basis?

Click to expand...

Go to the pub 

Thanks your kind input Aubrey  :chair:

The only way to get fit for caving is to go caving.
I wouldn't describe myself as fit, I'm a couple of stone over weight and I run when there's absolutely no other option i.e. my annual fitness test at work. I do some walking in the hills, but not on any level I would call regular and I go caving, on average, once or twice a month.

However, a year or so ago, I led a party of firemen on a weekend caving trip. These guys are phenomenally fit. 2 of them run half marathons on a regular basis, all of them are fanatic mountain bikers and their working day includes a 45 minute excercise break as well as a normal "lunch hour".

Nevertheless, after the trip on day one (a 3 hour "intro" trip in OFDII, all of them were in bits. Aching, cramping etc. 1 of the four declined a trip on day two on the basis that he was too knackered and needed to rest to make sure he was fit for work the next day.

Even the ones that did come on a second trip asked that we do something shorter and easier claiming aches in muscles they'd never used before.

There is one thing I found helped my caving, and vice-versa.

Capoeira.

It's an afrobrazilian martial art and it's seriously the best and most fun cardio and muscular workout ever. I absolutely love it and the community of people. I know there are groups in the UK =) I think it helps caving (and vice versa) is because both train your body in flexibility, agility, stamina, and strength. And both use muscles you didn't even know you had!

In Michigan USA I couldn't cave very often, like once every 4-6 weeks at best. But I played capoeira a few times a week on average. I found my caving ablities steadily and rapidly increasing despite not really caving all that often.

Now I live in Alabama USA and there is not a local capoeira group so I don't do it as much as I desire. (Such things are boring to do on your own, it's a very group/partner type thing) However, last year when I revisited my old group after 6 months away, I was astounded by how little it was affecting me physically - the agility and muscles and such I use caving kept me in the proper shape that capoeira wasn't any more difficult (in fact, I picked up a few new movements priorly I could not do, despite not having much chance to train!).

So yeah. I would definitly say capoeira.

I would go along with Jessopsmythe having had a similar experience with a couple of work colleagues, one who had recently climbed Killimanjaro & the other a still fit ex rugby player. Down to sump 1 in Swildons no problem, on the way out a different story, especially when it came to climbing the ladder at the twenty  .
Both fit enough for their own sports but caving is a different animal altogether!

"afrobrazilian" 

something much more topiary related came to mind when I read that word 

   

I was trying to think how to answer my own question and its obvious from some answers that its not easy, not least because I for one could potentially show up very badly depending on the pre-caving questions,  as I tried to demo in my opening post. 

As a pure hypothetical exercise I was wondering about a pre-questionaire based along the lines of ....

- What is your approx. age

- What is your approx. height and weight (ie now we have a body mass)

- Have you been caving before ? 
  If  >yes<  where did you go and how long ago was this ? 

- Do you have any medical problems e.g. physical, asthma, epilepsy, or anything else that you feel we should be aware of that concerns walking and/or caving.  Please note anything you mention is in strict confidence and may certainly not exclude you from this activity, but we do need your honest answer. 

- Do you do any monthly sports or any monthly or daily activity that involves a certain level of fitness; if yes please give a few details.  EG do you work in an office and have to regularly run up and down stairs, or play a particular sport.

- Just as a judgement of your group?s overall fitness, and we will not be doing this activity, if you thought about a fast walk for half a mile - a fast walk but not racing - what best describes how you believe you may feel about this.

1 = I would not be confident to be asked to walk half a mile regardless of speed. 
2 = I could walk half a mile OK at a groups >normal< walking speed.   
3 = I believe a >fast walk< for half a mile would be OK for me.   
4 = A fast walk for half a mile would be OK and more at a slower speed.
5 = I feel that could fast walk much more than half a mile if asked.

My thought for all the above was to begin to get a general view of a persons fitness, recognizing that this is not 'cave fitness'    and try and choose questions that may show someone like myself in a slightly better light than indicated in my opening post. 

Does this begin to work or are there better ways to establish an idea of PRE-fitness for caving 

Most important question: does your girth equal your height....

TheBitterEnd said:

"afrobrazilian" 

something much more topiary related came to mind when I read that word 

   

Click to expand...

  is that a case of DMTA?

Back on topic, I'd have to agree with whoever said it above, the best way of getting cave fit is to go caving. I've not been caving as much as I'd like over recent years and it shows, I can easily walk anywhere and outstrip some regular cavers on the walk to the cave, but in a cave, my fitness is ok, but in comparison to more regular cavers, lacking.

Obviously it depends on the type of cave, some caves are easy, even for non-cavers, but throw in a crawl or two, something vertical or a bit of thrutching and wriggling and it becomes a different game..

Being able to walk a certain distance / speed is not a guide to caving ability, unless they intend to go caving in (Northern examples) Great Douk Cave, Long Churn Cave. Random example; I took a few people on a County-Wretched through trip years back, all those involved were more than capable of walking a reasonable distance, exiting Wretched one in particular struggled, whilst the others of comparable fitness, BMI, etc managed ok.

And any questionnaire is open to the individuals own perception of what they can achieve, which is not always an accurate answer.

Agreed - if you want to get cave fit, go caving.

In case it helps, I'm sure I remember reading an article many years ago in one of our national publications (probably Descent or BCRA Caves & Caving) on how to modify general training schedules for best effect while caving. There's also been some useful material published (again I think in one of those magazines) on nutrition for cavers, which is all part of the equation. (There might have been a lecture on this at one of the BCRA Conferences at Manchester - which probably got written up somewhere.)

So, get fit for caving by going caving - and consume plenty of chips and beer! It works for most of us 

Quite a bit of it is simply technique, a less experienced caver uses up far more energy doing things in the cave then someone of more experience and finesse, so I echo the above but for a different reason, go caving!

I think Geoff R was after assessing someone's potential ability (liability ?) before taking them caving.

For reasons others have stated, this would seem difficult to impossible, so I guess the only prudent course is to take them on an easy trip, ideally one that had different points at which to turn back if the newbie was less fit/fitter than expected - and see how they fared.

I would have thought climbing experience would be a fairly good proxy for cave fitness - different skills, but more similar to caving than say running or rugby.  Oh, and afro-brazilian topiary skills, of course

JasonC is absolutely correct   

I am interested (purely for curiosity) how a professional caver could potentially judge a new persons ability  BEFORE taking them underground, based on answers to a simple questionnaire.. 

I had a feeling this could be real difficult   

I would have thought climbing experience would be a fairly good proxy for cave fitness

Click to expand...

I'm not so sure . . . how many climbs require wriggling and squirming on your belly?

Geoff R said:

JasonC is absolutely correct   

I am interested (purely for curiosity) how a professional caver could potentially judge a new persons ability  BEFORE taking them underground, based on answers to a simple questionnaire.. 

I had a feeling this could be real difficult 

Click to expand...

You can't really.

When working for my own company I ask the usual medical questions and get sizing for suits in advance. This immediately alerts me to any potential issues with physical activity or body size. From this I come up with a list of potential trips which I pass to the clients with descriptions of how physically demanding and typical passage progression, i.e. walk vs. crawl.
That usually gets me a pretty solid location. When they arrive and we chat I can still change my mind on where to go but you need to be pretty much wheelchair bound or highly ill to not survive a trip into the top of Giants or Peak Cavern.
When running open courses I generally aim for a first part of day trip into Giants anyway as that is a good start with options to visit Peak/Carlswark/Bagshawe/P8/Gautries/Jugholes etc... once I have a measure of the group.
Of course the weather could be rubbish and that makes things more complicated.

Working for other companies I have less input (if any) but this would be worst case: I turn up in the morning and get told I'm going to Carlswark with 1-16 people and the med forms are in the office. Couple of 'big' ones... tough, we aren't paying for Giants.

One approach for service, one for money making. I know which I prefer.

Fulk said:

I would have thought climbing experience would be a fairly good proxy for cave fitness

Click to expand...

I'm not so sure . . . how many climbs require wriggling and squirming on your belly?

Click to expand...

Sapper at Bowles Rocks is a good start...

Dairy farming and walking up steep hills and you will be ready for any cave they can throw at you!