Has anyone read the latest BMC newsletter concerning a new proposed bill relating to trespass being prepared for parliament.
I would have thought that a bill like this could be disastrous for caving, being unique in its style of access for caving, digging, or just having a look at a particular shake hole on a hunch, like we all do as a matter of fact.
In the north we do have the CNCC for access but I don't know any thing about other parts of the country.
I also suspect we don't have a national body to look after our interests like the BMC does for climbers and walkers. So does that mean that the BMC will take on that role for cavers if the need arises?
What are the thoughts of the geographical cross section of cavers we get on UKC?

BCA    Although based on the CRoW experience recently debated on here, some would argue they don't represent the best interests. That, however, is a completely different matter that most will probably agree to disagree on.

The BMC newsletter in question.

I can't see the relevance on access, we already have it and are not trespassing (northern example). If you go walking across a fair portion of land looking at shakeholes, you have the right to do so under CRoW.

And, would it only be a problem if you were caught?  :

dunc said:

BCA    Although based on the CRoW experience recently debated on here, some would argue they don't represent the best interests. That, however, is a completely different matter that most will probably agree to disagree on.

The BMC newsletter in question.

I can't see the relevance on access, we already have it and are not trespassing (northern example). If you go walking across a fair portion of land looking at shakeholes, you have the right to do so under CRoW.

And, would it only be a problem if you were caught?  :

Click to expand...

But what about all the caves and potential digs that aren't on CRoW land or the caves that can only be accessed by crossing non-CRoW land e.g. Sleets Gill and Dowkabottom, unless you make a long detour? This Bill is a step back to the 1930s and I'm astounded that any modern Government could consider proposing it. If they do this, they might also revoke or modify CRoW. The pressure group 38Degrees might be a starting point for our resistance although I'm not sure that they're all that effective.

Whilst being appalled by what this excuse for a government is doing to the planning laws in this country, I don't quite see why this should necessarily be a problem for cavers, as we should be negotiating access anyway. Certainly anyone digging (on the surface) and trespassing to do so is a bloody fool for all sorts of reasons.

I've just looked at the Crown Prosecution Service website, for the section. "Trespass and Nuisance on Land". Which details the classification of offences. And there are some areas of the legislation which could affect caving. Not only access, but for instance, would a dig in a shake hole constitute criminal damage to the property! 

As a landowner with working farmland in a National park, directly between a campsite and a pub, I really wish there was something that could be done to stop trespass. Mostly it is downright laziness as there are loads of public rights of ways but these would involve walking 100 metres further than walking diagonally across a hay meadow. Other times it is downright cheeky such as walking there (unwormed) dogs so they can shit away from their tents, or worse still, stealing firewood from my ready made piles to use on their camp fires.
Unfortunatelyu for every resposible user of the countryside there are 2 or 3 examples from the great unwashed who have no concept of the the responsibility which comes with civil freedoms. Accost them climbing a gate with a "no footpath" sign on it and they look at you as if you have 2 heads. Either that or they will say they ahve a right to roam so can go whereever they want. Is it any wonder most landowners would love to see laws of trespass strengthened.

cobz said:

I've just looked at the Crown Prosecution Service website, for the section. "Trespass and Nuisance on Land". Which details the classification of offences. And there are some areas of the legislation which could affect caving. Not only access, but for instance, would a dig in a shake hole constitute criminal damage to the property!

Click to expand...

Possibly. But why would you wish to do that without landowner's consent anyway? They're only going to backfill any random holes that appear on their land.

Wouldn't you?

graham said:

Whilst being appalled by what this excuse for a government is doing to the planning laws in this country, I don't quite see why this should necessarily be a problem for cavers, as we should be negotiating access anyway. Certainly anyone digging (on the surface) and trespassing to do so is a bloody fool for all sorts of reasons.

Click to expand...

Many cavers are 'bloody fools' who quietly and out of sight poke around in shakeholes and subsequently negotiate access if they find anything. But that's not the problem with this Bill; there is no negotiated access to many of our caves and this leads to the potential for acquiring a criminal record for doing nothing more than walking across someone's land.

This proposed legislation had already been pointed out on this thread: http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=14948.msg197205#msg197205

As Jenny says:

This has the potential to be really serious and we need to follow up on this and make sure that it is firmly stamped on.  (I wouldn't mind betting that this emanates from the CLA, who have never become reconciled with the CRoW legislation.) 

There are any number of cave sites which are not on CRoW land but where the current landowner really isn't bothered about people caving on his land and doesn't require permits, advance permission, etc.  However, if the land is sold on to someone with other ideas, access could be lost by default.  Yet another worry!

Click to expand...

Can someone point out the offending bits of the draft bill? http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm84/8495/8495.pdf

Its probably a way to make a few quid. issuing fines of ?150 for first offence and ?300 for second ect it only costs about ?15K for a copper to stay around well knows caves where you need to trespass and give you all ?150 fines

Was this new bill in the Queens Speech? If not, it is not going to happen ,yet.

Where's the 'free access' militants when you need them?

Free Access Militant here -

Quote "Can someone point out the offending bits of the draft bill? http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm84/8495/8495.pdf"

search for Chapter 2: Public spaces protection orders

see page 114 and 115 
also page 176

brief outline of problem

here http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2013/04/30/kate-ashbrook-warns-kinder-meeting-of-plans-for-new-criminal-trespass-law

regards
Beardy

grahams said:

Many cavers are 'bloody fools' who quietly and out of sight poke around in shakeholes and subsequently negotiate access if they find anything. But that's not the problem with this Bill; there is no negotiated access to many of our caves and this leads to the potential for acquiring a criminal record for doing nothing more than walking across someone's land.

Click to expand...

I'm (occasionally) one of the fools who do exactly as you say and negotiate access only if I clandestinely find something first. It's somewhat risky since most of the eastern U.S. is privately owned and walking across someone's land is a criminal offense (if the owner chooses to prosecute) regardless of any posted signage. The law causes quite the handicap when looking for new caves since much more time is spent hunting down owners and trying to obtain permission (which is very often rejected) than actually walking the land.