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Survival bag

bagpuss

Well-known member
Hi all,
Can anyone link me to a cheap plastic (lightweight) survival bag? Ebay brings up a multitude of options. I currently have the one I take with me in the mountains (bright orange thick plastic) which is really heavy, was wondering if there was anything lighter about?
 
flexx said:

My thought : 

do as a minimum buy one of the above - see the link - available from various caving outlets  /  also carry 1 x cheap night candle AND a lighter

Then in an emergency :

Sit on insulation ie on rope and out of draft and wet / take off helmet / pull this bag carefully over your head and down body to feet / tear face hole to breath / replace helmet / light candle between legs so heat travels up the bag / as wet cloths condense on inner side of the bag, reverse bag; and enjoy your wait til rescue.  :yucky:


 
Geoff R said:
flexx said:

My thought : 

do as a minimum buy one of the above - see the link - available from various caving outlets  /  also carry 1 x cheap night candle AND a lighter

Then in an emergency :

Sit on insulation ie on rope and out of draft and wet / take off helmet / pull this bag carefully over your head and down body to feet / tear face hole to breath / replace helmet / light candle between legs so heat travels up the bag / as wet cloths condense on inner side of the bag, reverse bag; and enjoy your wait til rescue.  :yucky:
can also be used as a 'comfort station' in dire emergency; hopefully not in a boulder-choke :o :'(
O. G.
 
A word form someone who has had to personally use a survival bag:

The lightweight type are shit.

The orange type are not shit.

Sorry not to beat about the bush, but when/if/should you need to use it, it had better be up to the job.

And if the extra weight of 100g is holding you back from caving, either look elsewhere at your kit, or get fitter.

Amen...
 
stu said:
The lightweight type are shit.

The orange type are not shit.

Another option falling in the "not shit" category are storm shelters / bothys. Two-person ones are good (small enough to be practical).
 
stu said:
The lightweight type are shit.
They're both shit, and both equally as warm. What do you mean?

The orange PVC ones are much more useful up-top as they won't shred in a gale. The lightweight ones are best to consider disposable - you can refold them, but first you've got to wash all the mud off if they've been used in anger, and you poke holes in them while using them.

Bothy's are really nice - mainly because they're reusable and less claustrophobic with the ripstop nylon rather than plastic. They're probably less warm as a result (but no condensation), but you can get two people in there which is nice and cosy, and go head first so you're not losing so much heat with your breath.
 
I second what Stu said above; in general British cavers don't take this subject seriously enough which is probably because our caves are fairly warm & forgiving compared to some.  If a caver can't manage the weight of a little bit of emergency kit then they should eat more Weetabix in the morning.

Few observations: as someone mentioned group shelters/kisus are great & they've been obligatory equipment for anyone involved in exploring the Dachstein caves for the last 15 years when we realised how appallingly useless those flimsy little survival bags/blankets are in Alpine potholes.  Lot warmer than you might think.  And when you climb out into a blizzard you'll be doubly grateful that you don't have to crawl into your shredded bin bag! I sew on a couple of loops along the top, attach tiny krabs & suspend a length of cord across the chamber/passage etc & it then turns the clingy sack into a comfortable tent that doesn't get too damp inside.

The classic method of using the big orange survival bags (as someone else mentioned) does have it's drawbacks.  In an ideal world you'd be fresh & awake when trouble hits but the reality is that you'll probably be tired, wet, hungry, sleepy & very, very cold.  Under those circumstances it's easy to start nodding off, chin drops to chest, start inhaling fumes, legs slump slightly, flame starts melting plastic, more noxious fumes, wake up gibbering in the cold, burn oversuit whilst trying to drag the excess plastic over your legs which is now tricky because you're trapping it with your ass.  Hmmn, they don't mention that sort of stuff in the books.... 

 
Geoff R said:
flexx said:

My thought : 

do as a minimum buy one of the above - see the link - available from various caving outlets  /  also carry 1 x cheap night candle AND a lighter

Then in an emergency :

Sit on insulation ie on rope and out of draft and wet / take off helmet / pull this bag carefully over your head and down body to feet / tear face hole to breath / replace helmet / light candle between legs so heat travels up the bag / as wet cloths condense on inner side of the bag, reverse bag; and enjoy your wait til rescue.  :yucky:

I saw this done once in a low key sort of way, it wasn't a massive drama or anything but someone was getting a bit too wet, cold and tired. It seemed to work well and after a bit they were able to continue out under their own steam  :thumbsup:
 
jarvist said:
stu said:
The lightweight type are shit.
They're both shit, and both equally as warm. What do you mean?

There are levels of shit. The clear plastic ones shred almost immediately underground. Warm is subjective. It's about retaining as much heat as possible. The clear plastic ones cling to you - no air space to warm such as with the orange type.

The orange PVC ones are much more useful up-top as they won't shred in a gale. The lightweight ones are best to consider disposable - you can refold them, but first you've got to wash all the mud off if they've been used in anger, and you poke holes in them while using them.

Good reason not to use them.

Bothy's are really nice - mainly because they're reusable and less claustrophobic with the ripstop nylon rather than plastic. They're probably less warm as a result (but no condensation), but you can get two people in there which is nice and cosy, and go head first so you're not losing so much heat with your breath.

Bothies are great (I carry one - plus orange bag - when caving in a group). They can get very warm with two bods in. Though I've shredded these underground too. The morale boost of having company is a big boost.

Lots of cavers I know don't take a first aid kit so why I expect them to carry the most basic (usable) emergency kit...

One guy in YSS always carries quite a substantial personal bag. He often gets the odd funny look. The odd funny look usually disappears when the people he caves with state how they wish they had a certain item, and lo, he makes it appear.

Interesting Joel's comment about caving in the Alpine regions. I've often made caving analogous to Alpine climbing or mountaineering or similar to climbing or mountaineering in UK winter, where people often go to crazy extremes to taking kit.

 
Having used both, I find bothys to be much warmer than those clear plastic "cavers' survival bags".

The other thing I like about bothys is that they are not just emergency kit. You can open them out in less than a minute; you can pack them away in less than a minute. So use them!

Sitting around while someone takes hours hammering a bolt into really hard rock? Get into your bothy.

Waiting on the surface while someone rigs, and a hail storm moves in? Get into your bothy.

Both of these actually happened to me, except the latter one was before I started carrying a bothy as standard. As a result, we had to abort the trip after people got too cold on the surface.
 
Lordy! Clearly matters pertaining to safety bring out the best in us. From anecdote presented as fact, through willy waving over one's choice to holiday destination, to slurs on another caver's attitude to safety as a result of gear choice.
 
jarvist said:
Lordy! Clearly matters pertaining to safety bring out the best in us. From anecdote presented as fact, through willy waving over one's choice to holiday destination, to slurs on another caver's attitude to safety as a result of gear choice.

When my core temperature had only risen to 35? some five hours after having been in medical care, I presume I can talk with some slight prejudice as to the kit I had?  :shrug:

What willy waving? What slurs?

It's not a subject to treat lightly, yet many (as witnessed on any given weekend) seem to. Up to them I guess and I'd never walk past someone who needed my survival bag and bothy. I just hope that after I've given it to them and started to make my way out to get rescue help, for them, that I don't incur an accident...
 
jarvist said:
From anecdote presented as fact

I see anecdote presented as anecdote, and opinions presented as opinions. Not sure what you're reading.

IMO it is not always necessary to add "IMO" to indicate that something is, in fact, your O. People normally assume that what comes out your mouth is your O, and no one else's.

(Personally I hate it when someone else's O comes out my mouth, unless it's someone I really like.)
 
Personally Im glad people are actually thinking about this subject as all too often it seems cavers dont seem to carry any such gear.  Better SOME emergency gear than none IMHO. 

As a minimum I always choose to carry that horrid thin plastic bag thing and candle, and in the right circumstances I feel happy it would work OK underground, BUT what I should add is that depending on circumstance I also regularly pack a 4x person bothy tied into a bottom of a rope bag, with thin cord already packed for its corners, all in a plastic bag to stop water adding weight. I usually get others to carry it.  Also Ive also been known to pack a Blizzard survival bag if the exit was a little water dependent.   

I can see exactly where people are coming from when they say the thin bags are not good (shit) and its a fair comment, but better something than nothing for UK caves  ::) 

Stuck underground or on a hill I would certainly prefer my nice bothy; that's why its ofter in my rope bag :)
For walking its also great for lunch stops  :thumbsup:

 
Sorry to be so ignorant, but what exactly are these 'bothies'? Are they like a kisu? Could somebody post a picture of one?
 
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