The BMC model

Jon · Feb 14, 2014

As mentioned before by Stu, climbers and hill walkers are represented nationally by the BMC, who have area reps who deal with access issues locally.

Why can't caving be the same?

Why can't the BCA take over access issues, appointing cavers local to each area to deal with local issues?

I understand the historical situation that has led us to the CNCC but is there a valid reason why we have to stick with it?

graham · Feb 14, 2014

I suspect that those bodies who deal perfectly happily with access up and down the country will be a touch peeved to be summarily removed.

And who would replace them?

The same people wearing different hats, mainly.

martinm · Feb 14, 2014

Jon said:
Why can't caving be the same?

Why can't the BCA take over access issues, appointing cavers local to each area to deal with local issues?

I understand the historical situation that has led us to the CNCC but is there a valid reason why we have to stick with it?

It is the same! BCA delegates local issues to the respective regonal bodies. All the other areas have numerous "cavers local to each area to deal with local issues" In the Peak we have a large number of people working with DCA sorting out access issues, entrance, stile, fence repairs, etc. It works very well, thank you!

Can't speak for the CNCC, sorry.

Bob Mehew · Feb 14, 2014

Jon, you need to get a lesson in the history of caving politics, not that I am one to provide it. But from what I have learned, most regions formed before NCA to cope with access problems, excluding CCC where I believe SWCC took the lead. Having formed a power base, they were unwilling to cede any of it to a central organisation like NCA. So NCA's constitution gave it almost no downward power and left it with only some upward power to deal with government. (Read elsewhere about governing v representation being sensitive even today.) Indeed a region could veto any proposal which came before NCA. Fortunately we were able to push that back a little in forming BCA, but Sec 11.1 was retained. It was only because of the need to identify individuals for insurance purposes that we managed to get individual members into BCA. Otherwise we would still have the nonsense IMHO of clubs representing cavers and regions representing clubs. Mark you go back to CRG and BSA to see caving has always had its problems about a structure.

graham · Feb 14, 2014

Bob is right. You cannot divorce where we are today from its history and its politics.

The 'interesting' issues that caused the CRG to be set up with the structure that it had arose in the 1940s from the issues of the time, which related both to politics and to specific individuals. That situation did not change until the protagonists on all sides were dead and buried and even then a strong sense of loyalty had to be worked through before the issues could all be overcome and BCRA could be formed. Similarly it is true, though some now will find this hard to believe, that CSCC was only really formed because of a perceived fear that CNCC would attempt to turn itself into a national 'governing' body exactly as had once been envisioned for the BSA.

To my mind, as I have said before, the best development in British caving from this perspective has been the success of CHECC. Most of our younger cavers know each other as well as, if not better, than they know the older members of their own clubs. This can only lead to greater co-operation and understanding as time goes on.

Bob Mehew · Feb 14, 2014

graham said:
To my mind, as I have said before, the best development in British caving from this perspective has been the success of CHECC. Most of our younger cavers know each other as well as, if not better, than they know the older members of their own clubs. This can only lead to greater co-operation and understanding as time goes on.

I can hardly believe I am in agreement with you given the fights we used to have! Hopefully in time direct individual representation will take over from clubs given the new ways we could be working with Twitter, Facebook and even this forum.

robjones · Feb 14, 2014

Yup, in some ways caving in Britain is still reaping the legacy of Eli Simpson, albeit third-hand by now. Surely no other single individual can be said to have influenced caving in Britain to such a degree?

Thank you Bob, Glenn and Kay for your various detailed and patient explanations of caving committes and caving politics in the cluster of recent threads on CNCC and BCA. I've been reminded of stuff I'd forgotten, and learnt much that is new.

I look forward with keen interest to how Descent will report current issues and debates.

graham · Feb 14, 2014

Bob Mehew said:
graham said:

To my mind, as I have said before, the best development in British caving from this perspective has been the success of CHECC. Most of our younger cavers know each other as well as, if not better, than they know the older members of their own clubs. This can only lead to greater co-operation and understanding as time goes on.

Click to expand...

I can hardly believe I am in agreement with you given the fights we used to have! Hopefully in time direct individual representation will take over from clubs given the new ways we could be working with Twitter, Facebook and even this forum.

I'm hurt, Bob, hurt to the core. We've had intellectual disagreements, sure, but fights?!?

The world changes and even dinosaurs like us have to adapt.

graham · Feb 14, 2014

robjones said:
I look forward with keen interest to how Descent will report current issues and debates.

Belatedly, as that is the way of print media in a modern world.

That is not to say that it is a bad thing. I well remember an article by the late Denis Jenkinson who wrote (many aeons ago) for the monthly publication Motor Sport. He pointed out that the later publication of his articles, as compared with the dailies or weeklies, and thus his extended copy date, enabled him to write far more reflective, nuanced and in-depth reports than his hasty rivals.

Twitter might give you breaking headlines but it'll never give you serious analysis.

Antwan · Feb 15, 2014

Jon, Have ever been 1- a member of the BMC and 2- Involved in anything regarding access and conservation?

If you have then you would know that it actually operates very similarly to the way the BCA and the regional councils do at the moment.

Nuff Said.

jasonbirder · Feb 15, 2014

I can't help but feel that the whole discussion (which was predominantly focused around access for DIM's and members of Caving Clubs being able to access permits for Casterton Fell and Leck Fell alongside a concern over paid access to the fells for Commercial Cavers) has seemed to divert itself into dozens of discussions about the minutia of Caving Politics...history of Caving bodies and the ever more tedious rights and wrongs of various committee procedures...

Now, this may well be of interest to the kind of people that like committees and minutes and referring to sub-section c of Rule 11a as quoted at the sub-comittee meeting on 4th of October 2011 but not upheld because of an improper Voting procedure...

BUT, for most of us is it not enough to ask WHY on earth no-one with any responsibility for access in those area's hasn't simply said to the landowners representatives...

Its the 21st century...we're allowing people to apply by Email now...and besides...no clubs REALLY have club headed notepaper to apply on...we only put that in the rules for a laugh when we were pissed...no changes to access - but makes ours and cavers lives alot easier...oh and theres a national caving club called the BCA its got lots of members...they're now a club we allow to apply for permits too...same as everyone else...they got insurance and all that lark...no problems? OK thanks

Not difficult, not time consuming and unlikely to be refused...

Now sorry to have interupted...you can get back to your discussion of how the 1940's committee structure of some old caving body lead to the current constitution...or other tedious nonsense!

graham · Feb 15, 2014

jason

I've served on a fair number of committees in my time and I can tell you that rarely does anyone actually do so because they really love committees. Now, I think there is a better system, which is that everybody does stuff my way, but strangely enough some people are too short-sighted to agree with me. Committees - and this doesn't just apply to caving - get formed because they are a better option than having fights and referring somebody to sub-section c of Rule 11a is actually more socially acceptable than smacking them in the mouth with a brick.

If you think you can do better then you are welcome to try, but don't knock those who actually spend their time in this tedious stuff on your behalf.

Now excuse me, I'm having a bad day.

SeeJay · Feb 15, 2014

I think Jason's key point is one you can agree with though Graham?

I don't like to speak for him but I think it's his perception (particularly as a Peak District caver where access is relatively easy to arrange) that in some caving areas the system as it stands can make it difficult for cavers to go caving. Some of this may appear externally to be due to an individual or committee's desire to maintain control where it is no longer appropriate, or unwillingness to accept and move with changes in technologies and the make up of caving groups.

As you said in a previous post, "The world changes and even dinosaurs like us have to adapt" and that's pretty much what the quoted section in Jason's post is saying too. I read the rest of it as just saying "we don't care how we got here, we just care about how we move on to somewhere better".

Chris

PS. I know Jason caves regularly with at least one DCA officer. Also, speaking personally I am grateful for all the work the DCA volunteers do to improve things for cavers in the Peak District.

exsumper · Feb 15, 2014

Bob Mehew said:
Jon, you need to get a lesson in the history of caving politics, not that I am one to provide it. But from what I have learned, most regions formed before NCA to cope with access problems, excluding CCC where I believe SWCC took the lead. Having formed a power base, they were unwilling to cede any of it to a central organisation like NCA. So NCA's constitution gave it almost no downward power and left it with only some upward power to deal with government. (Read elsewhere about governing v representation being sensitive even today.) Indeed a region could veto any proposal which came before NCA. Fortunately we were able to push that back a little in forming BCA, but Sec 11.1 was retained. It was only because of the need to identify individuals for insurance purposes that we managed to get individual members into BCA. Otherwise we would still have the nonsense IMHO of clubs representing cavers and regions representing clubs. Mark you go back to CRG and BSA to see caving has always had its problems about a structure.

I must hand it to you and your NCA colleagues! You managed to completely wrong foot those of us who just wanted to get on with caving, deal with any issues on a local or personal level, and train anyone who expressed an interest in our activities ourselves.

You won! belated congratulations!

You fooled us all completely, Those weirdo's we used to piss ourselves laughing at for spending their weekends driving up and down the M6, completely fooled us all, admittedly in an idle moment, we might have considered what the F**k are they up to? merely thinking that the worst they can do is send us a copy of some nonsense called speleoscene!

But no! The Bureaucrats won! you are the masters now!!

Clubs and club training has been decimated! No more poxy amateurs!

Well Done, you must all be very proud!

Pitlamp · Feb 15, 2014

Never forget, exsumper, that "amateur" simply means you don't get paid. It doesn't mean, in any way, that you're incompetent. Someone who caves for their profession is not necessarily any more or less competent than someone who does it as a pastime.

I make no apology for mentioning (yet again) that the real centres of excellence in caving endeavour are the clubs and groups of individuals who actively dig, photograph, survey, research, conserve, etc. But I also know many people who cave for a living who also do these things well - many of them also cave for pleasure with their own clubs and groups of friends.

You can't really legislate in favour of - or to the detriment of - anyone who goes into a cave for whatever reason. At the end of the day, we're all just cavers.

Jon · Feb 15, 2014

Antwan said:
Jon, Have ever been 1- a member of the BMC and 2- Involved in anything regarding access and conservation?

If you have then you would know that it actually operates very similarly to the way the BCA and the regional councils do at the moment.

Nuff Said.

I am a member of the BMC and if I want to go climbing or hill walking I go. I don't have to join a club and I don't have to get a permit. This is the difference, the BMC work to secure access for climbers and hill walkers, not for clubs. I know the club system is still strong in the BMC but I don't have to be in one to go and fall off Stanage.

I don't really care about all the past politics of caving. What I do know is that to go caving in parts of Yorkshire requires a certain amount of hoop jumping and I can't see why, in today's world, it can't be easier.

martinm · Feb 15, 2014

Jon said:
Antwan said:

Jon, Have ever been 1- a member of the BMC and 2- Involved in anything regarding access and conservation?

If you have then you would know that it actually operates very similarly to the way the BCA and the regional councils do at the moment.

Nuff Said.

Click to expand...

I am a member of the BMC and if I want to go climbing or hill walking I go. I don't have to join a club and I don't have to get a permit. This is the difference, the BMC work to secure access for climbers and hill walkers, not for clubs. I know the club system is still strong in the BMC but I don't have to be in one to go and fall off Stanage.

I don't really care about all the past politics of caving. What I do know is that to go caving in parts of Yorkshire requires a certain amount of hoop jumping and I can't see why, in today's world, it can't be easier.

Ask the landowners then. The fact is that most current access agreements are in place because of (sometimes lengthy, years even) negotiations with them by volunteers of regional organisations. The same can be said of the Peak, Mendips and South Wales. (ie:- There are systems requiring permits.) We all strive for ease of access, but sometimes we have to compromise with the landowners!

BCA caters for club and individual members so don't blame the BCA. I agree in the case of CNCC there is a problem with lack of access for DIMs. So go along to the meeting and discuss your concerns with them there. Moaning about it here won't achieve anything.

I do like the suggestion of "there's a national caving club called the BCA its got lots of members...they're now a club we allow to apply for permits too...same as everyone else...they got insurance and all that lark" That way, anyone who is a member of BCA should be able to apply for permits where required...

BUT, it might be better for the CNCC to negotiate access for DIMs, surely wouldn't be that difficult? If the landowner says no then nowt lost, just a thought....

Jon · Feb 15, 2014

[/quote]
So go along to the meeting and discuss your concerns with them there. Moaning about it here won't achieve anything.
[/quote]

It does actually. It's an exchange of ideas.

Antwan · Feb 15, 2014

Jon said:
I am a member of the BMC and if I want to go climbing or hill walking I go. I don't have to join a club and I don't have to get a permit.

You cant just go climbing anywhere you want though can you, Some crags you have to pay a fee, some crags you can not climb on full stop. Some crags you need to prove BMC membership for access (okay I only know one place where this happens).

So yeah your right, you can just go and fall off stanage, the same as you can go fall down Jingling if you wish
Maybe there should be a permit system on Stanage then routes like Flying buttress wouldn't be polished as... well something very smooth and polished?

Also the BMC is a million pound organisation. and still relys on hundreds of volunteers. I dont think the CNCC has hundreds of volunteers or a million pound bank balance.

Your quite welcome to your view Jon, This is my View on it after years of work restoring crags and route cleaning/checking for guide books. Apologies if it sounds like an attack, Its not meant to sound that way.

Jon · Feb 16, 2014

Antwan said:
Jon said:

I am a member of the BMC and if I want to go climbing or hill walking I go. I don't have to join a club and I don't have to get a permit.

Click to expand...

You cant just go climbing anywhere you want though can you, Some crags you have to pay a fee, some crags you can not climb on full stop. Some crags you need to prove BMC membership for access (okay I only know one place where this happens).

So yeah your right, you can just go and fall off stanage, the same as you can go fall down Jingling if you wish
Maybe there should be a permit system on Stanage then routes like Flying buttress wouldn't be polished as... well something very smooth and polished?

Also the BMC is a million pound organisation. and still relys on hundreds of volunteers. I dont think the CNCC has hundreds of volunteers or a million pound bank balance.

Your quite welcome to your view Jon, This is my View on it after years of work restoring crags and route cleaning/checking for guide books. Apologies if it sounds like an attack, Its not meant to sound that way.

But the whole point is that it's easy. Go to the BMC RAD website, check access restrictions, make a decision. Job done in about a minute.

As compared to; join a club, ask the club Secretary to get permission for a particular cave on a particular day. Job done in days? Weeks?

The Derbyshire Caver, No. 158

The latest issue is finally complete and printed

The BMC model

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