BCA Membership: tangential insurance thread

traff

traff

Member
[mod]This new thread is the result of splitting out a tangential sub-thread from the BCA Ballot thread, dealing as it does with issues about whether BCA insurance is sufficient as a result of >?5m claim(s)[/mod]

mmilner said:
cavermark said:
Number of eligible voters: 6,085Total number of votes cast: 2,270Turnout: 37.3%Out of interest - do we have any estimate of how many active British cavers are not BCA members?
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Not many I'd have thought as you need BCA Insurance for most caves these days to keep the landowners happy...
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I would beg to differ, some purely anecdotal evidence I raised in a different thread:
traff said:
I am a caver who chooses not to be a member of a club or the BCA.I do not live in a caving region where I would expect to meet cavers, but have still met a half a dozen or more cavers in everyday life.Not one of those cavers were in a club or the BCA. I find that quite a startling statistic.Of course it could be a freak data set but none the less I believe it points to a significant number (possibly a majority?) of cavers with no say.
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In reality however nobody knows but I would wager that at best only 50% of cavers are BCA members.
 
Hughie

Hughie

Active member
mmilner said:
cavermark said:
Number of eligible voters: 6,085
Total number of votes cast: 2,270
Turnout: 37.3%

Out of interest - do we have any estimate of how many active British cavers are not BCA members?
Click to expand...

Not many I'd have thought as you need BCA Insurance for most caves these days to keep the landowners happy...
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BCA insurance is wholly inadequate at it's current level. Cover of only ?5million is no longer considered sufficient.
 
cavermark

cavermark

New member
Hughie said:
BCA insurance is wholly inadequate at it's current level. Cover of only ?5million is no longer considered sufficient.
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For third party liability? what sort of scenario would require more than this?
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
cavermark said:
Hughie said:
BCA insurance is wholly inadequate at it's current level. Cover of only ?5million is no longer considered sufficient.
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For third party liability? what sort of scenario would require more than this?
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Since truth is stranger than fiction, any guesswork scenario you can envisage (no matter how bizarre and preposterous it may sound) will be nowhere near as bizarre and preposterous as a reality that could result in a +?5m claim.
 
Hughie

Hughie

Active member
Cap'n Chris said:
cavermark said:
Hughie said:
BCA insurance is wholly inadequate at it's current level. Cover of only ?5million is no longer considered sufficient.
Click to expand...

For third party liability? what sort of scenario would require more than this?
Click to expand...

Since truth is stranger than fiction, any guesswork scenario you can envisage (no matter how bizarre and preposterous it may sound) will be nowhere near as bizarre and preposterous as a reality that could result in a +?5m claim.
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A successful ?6.5 million claim has been made against a farmer. His NFU Mutual public and products liability coughed up ?5 million, leaving him to fund the remainder. Unfortunately I don't know the circumstances, so it's anecdotal - but the Mutual are indeed advising ?10 mill cover and it seems to have become the ag business industry norm.
 
B

Blakethwaite

New member
Cap'n Chris said:
as bizarre and preposterous as a reality that could result in a +?5m claim.
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It's a relatively unremarkable figure.

Take a thrusting young professional with a high earning potential, give him a wife and a few young kids. Add a spinal injury caused by somebody else's negligence which renders him  quadriplegic then start doing the sums.

There's not a huge amount to be had for the injury itself but when you start adding in the cost of future lost earnings, full time care and medical assistance etc etc etc. You'll need a big purse!
 
Stu

Stu

Active member
Cap'n Chris said:
cavermark said:
Hughie said:
BCA insurance is wholly inadequate at it's current level. Cover of only ?5million is no longer considered sufficient.
Click to expand...

For third party liability? what sort of scenario would require more than this?
Click to expand...

Since truth is stranger than fiction, any guesswork scenario you can envisage (no matter how bizarre and preposterous it may sound) will be nowhere near as bizarre and preposterous as a reality that could result in a +?5m claim.
Click to expand...

As a mod can you get this back on topic please. Cheers.
 
Roger W

Roger W

Well-known member
My travel insurance policy for a forthcoming overseas trip (classed as 'tourism' not 'adventure holiday' or 'expedition to hazardous places with serious risk of dismemberment or death') has a ?5,000,000 cover for "emergency medical expenses."  And I could easily have increased that to 10 or 25 million by paying a somewhat larger premium.  And that - as others have commented - includes nothing towards the cost of lifetime care or loss of earnings.

Insurance claims are big money these days.
 
nickwilliams

nickwilliams

Well-known member
Raising the BCA's limit of indemnity to ?10m would probably increase the caving member insurance contribution to about ?21 and the non-caver contribution to about ?7.50.

Do people think it's worth it?

 
Bottlebank

Bottlebank

New member
nickwilliams said:
Raising the BCA's limit of indemnity to ?10m would probably increase the caving member insurance contribution to about ?21 and the non-caver contribution to about ?7.50.

Do people think it's worth it?
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Is that a rise of ?4 or so for caving members?

If so then yes, very much so.
 
kay

kay

Well-known member
nickwilliams said:
Raising the BCA's limit of indemnity to ?10m would probably increase the caving member insurance contribution to about ?21 and the non-caver contribution to about ?7.50.

Do people think it's worth it?
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Double the cover for a 29% increase in contribution? Yes, worth it.

We've already seen a couple of settlements which have exceeded ?5m - I don't think we should wait till such settlements become the norm before raising the cover.
 
bograt

bograt

Active member
I've recently had cause to check on our NFU liability cover for farmers market produce (Christmas Markets), they recommend ?5 million, although with all the other hoops we have to jump through  (Food hygiene, etc.) they might consider us a low risk.

Of course one has to ask the question; Should anyone worth ?5million be taking up a 'high risk sport' like caving, I know I'll never be worth that much!.(but there again I'm  a bit very aged with not many years left) --- be interesting to know how much others value themselves at  :-\
 
cavermark

cavermark

New member
Hughie said:
A successful ?6.5 million claim has been made against a farmer. His NFU Mutual public and products liability coughed up ?5 million, leaving him to fund the remainder. Unfortunately I don't know the circumstances, so it's anecdotal - but the Mutual are indeed advising ?10 mill cover and it seems to have become the ag business industry norm.
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it would be interesting to know the details of the claim...
 
cavermark

cavermark

New member
nickwilliams said:
Raising the BCA's limit of indemnity to ?10m would probably increase the caving member insurance contribution to about ?21 and the non-caver contribution to about ?7.50.

Do people think it's worth it?
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It's a tricky one - with insurance not being a legal requirement there is a chance that an UNinsured caver could cause an incident resulting in an expensive claim - if they were unable to pay up that would potentially give cavers in general a bad name...

If the premium goes up, would that discourage more people from getting insurance - which would increase the risk of an incident from an uninsured caver...?  :-\
 
bograt

bograt

Active member
Cap'n Chris said:
bograt said:
Should anyone worth ?5million be taking up a 'high risk sport' like caving
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Bare Grilles, Hate Crumble, Steve Backshill, Jack Ozzbum etc..
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Now thats just silly!!! I doubt prats people like that depend upon BCA insurance.
 
alastairgott

alastairgott

Well-known member
quick google-ing brought out this article about ?6.5 million claim in devon, as before not much more detail but also not sure if by region they mean specifically the region of insurance, storm damage?
http://www.northdevonjournal.co.uk/Insurance-firms-facing-deluge-farm-claims/story-20426400-detail/story.html

this article points the ?6.5million specifically at storm and flood damage:
http://www.southwestfarmer.co.uk/news/10932245.__6_5_million_storm_damage_in_SW__says_NFU_Mutual/?ref=rss

This article points a figure of ?6.5 million at cattle rustling (not sure if this is an insurance claim?)
http://www.thebay.co.uk/news/local-news/farmers-asked-to-fight-rural-crime-by-joining-lancashire-police-database/


So I guess take your pick, but typically these claims affect the entire farm. I am unsure if a collapse of land would affect an entire farm, and I'm pretty sure that any cavers digging would look into where they are digging under (so that they are not digging under a farmhouse).

If the collapse was under a farmhouse, I guess the cost of Rebuilding a farmhouse could be quite significant, so could providing alternative accommodation and also providing for loss of earnings.

But most diggers will be in close contact with the farmer and would know if they were digging under the farmhouse (and think about it first).


G.Z.
 
bograt

bograt

Active member
Thanks for that Alastair, NFU insurance is very categorised; Property, Livestock, Vehicles, Produce, Deadstock (machinery), Employers, Third Party, etc.--
Each category carries its own premium and maximum claim.

As far as I know the BCA insurance only covers a 'Third Party'; The first Party is the insurance company, The Second Party is the policy holder, The Third party is the claimant, I'm not sure where property comes into this, I also doubt that any British farm has livestock valued at ?5million (at least that can be rustled!)
 
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