Its not easy to judge how long a trip will take especially if its a cave you've never visited before!

I personally would rather err on the side of having a later call-out time rather than having people worrying and wasting peoples time when a trip over-runs and rescue is called out only to find alls-well and you just took longer to do the trip.

Adding more time on could in the event of an accident delay things but one of the party would hopefully in most cases be out of the cave and called rescue well before the call-out time is reached..

Agree, i generally go for a slightly later callout,

Experienced parties can have a longer callout than say freshers, as they have more energy/ reserves/ fitness to deal with their own problems

e.g. an experience party who are fit and able have a much longer callout (maybe digging etc.) so that if something (higher water levels, comedy fuckups etc.) makes the trip slower, the objectives are still possible. This works on the basis that if someone had a serious problem ppl could get out and raise rescue anyway.

If the party size is small or people are inexperience, or the cave is likely to flood the callout should be shorter
IMHO

I always go for a call-out a few hours after the time I expect to be out the cave. I would rather spend a few hours longer waiting than see cave rescue called because I'm a little late.

RM said:

Experienced parties can have a longer callout than say freshers, as they have more energy/ reserves/ fitness to deal with their own problems

Click to expand...

But freshers are more likely to take longer than expected through sheer incompetence, and so arguably should have a longer callout?

Do the cave rescue organisations use their judgement? - eg if they get a call out, but realise that the party in question had grossly underestimated the time required for the trip, do they hold off before searching?

Do people have any 'lower limit' for call-outs - eg if you're taking your son for a romp through Thistle and Runscar, do you still have a call out time?

there was a call out in speedwell recently when the party were well overdue - (set off at 10 am for a JH to exit peak trip) They got lost and where found at about midnight. they didn't what the fuss was as they thougth it was probably about 6pm!!!

make of that what you will

I leave two times - The time I should be out and the time at which something is wrong and an emergency should be called.
The callout should always include enough time to do the trip - 'doing the trip includes the time taken to get back to a point at which you can call in' - this may necessarily include travel time to a mobile signal area or back to base/home etc.

Basically I'm asking what, if an ything am I missing when picking these times?

Click to expand...

Assuming they are just dummy figures as the time changing and walking in is much longer than the time outwards?
You may be over-analysing it.
Work out rough times as you have done, then round it up to the nearest hour.
A 25% margin does not hurt, and if you get out early it usually increases the time in the pub!

Keep track of your times going in - if you see that you are falling behind your own schedule you will need to either speed up - cut something out - or bin the trip!
Being concious of a turn-around time is also important.

Flexible thinking on the part of the leader is also required - but the golden rule is that whatever time you left with people top-side must be adhered to - if you misjudged it and it ruins the trip then you'll know better next time!

I'm guessing now, but rescue teams might be unsympathetic to scramble on a dark wet night only to find you perfectly ok but just a "bit behind schedule" as you 'misjudged it'.

kay said:

But freshers are more likely to take longer than expected through sheer incompetence, and so arguably should have a longer callout?

Click to expand...

Not just freshers!

I recently did OFD2 to Cwm Dwr, usually about a 3 hours trip.
With little water in the stream and none forecast, we were going to have a little explore (an extra 5 or 6 hours). But we had Mr F*ck Up shadowing us that weekend (right from setting off from home in my slippers!) so we allowed an extra couple of hours on top of that; and an extra couple until the pubs closed! (Ever tried to raise a call-out when a round has just been bought?) This meant that we placed 12 hours duration on our call-out sheet (much to Mr. Sparrow's derision)
In the end we were underground for 9 hours (never more than 50-60m off the 'trade-route', to which we kept returning) and had a thoroughly enjoyable trip.



Most trips carry enough food, extra lighting and emergency blankets for a few more hours underground if they are lost, so in most cases they shouldn't need to set a 'tight' deadline for their trip. If someone was injured, then a colleague would exit to raise the rescue regardless of the call-out time (unless you cave alone), so more latitude in the estimation is not an issue here. The only instance I can imagine for setting a ‘tight' time would be if there was a danger of flooding (but why would you be underground in these circumstances anyhow?)

I suppose what I'm trying to point out is that your call-out should reflect the circumstances of your trip, not just some simple formula, or set time for that trip, and that I feel there is little or no justification for tight schedules.

I would normally have a good 3 hours to spare. Probably too long if there was an incident but less risk of a false call out.

I always keep a watch on the time from when we left the last phone signal and allow good time to get back to that point, if that means calling a trip short then so be it.

Always work on the side of getting back early, do not risk a false call out.

And perhaps a call-out time should be a limit for getting back home, assuming you started out from home. You can't always rely on your phone working - there must be a fair number of caves where there is no mobile signal anywhere remotely near the entrance. Or your battery might go flat - so go for the safest option - leave a call-out with someone you know you are going to see immediately after the trip, and arrange it around you not appearing back again when you said you would.

Peter Burgess said:

so go for the safest option - leave a call-out with someone you know you are going to see immediately after the trip, and arrange it around you not appearing back again when you said you would.

Click to expand...

The one time I was rescued, one of the group turned around at the start of the through trip, and after we made sure he knew our call-out time, went to the pub. Another of the guy's knee repeatedly started to pop-out about half way through, which slowed us down considerably. The lad in the pub was enjoying the lock-in when he saw the WCRT blue lights passing and thought nothing more of it. My wife had initiated the overdue call out from 200miles away (the Northants Police call centre didn't know what to do with a Cave Rescue call and it took her 15 minutes to sort things out with them). We didn't call the guy in the pub 'Brian the brain' for nothing!

In an ideal world a call-out note includes:

estimated time in the cave
estimated time out of the cave
cave rescue call-out time

These three together indicate to a rescue controller how urgent a response is required to an overdue party.

something from experience that I think is important is always being honest with yourself about call-out times and making sure there is always someone who can 'turn' the group back if necessary. People sometimes plan a trip which is perfectly 'do-able' but need to be out by say 5pm for whatever reason and then say well- our time out will be 4.00 then because they need to be out by then and not because that is how long it will take- they then get 2/3rds of the way to the bottom/ end and just decide to finish it anyway. This then results in them being late out and a rescue potentially be initiated. I always decide about an hour into a trip how long I think it will take to get to the planned destination and then calculate a time when we ought to turn back regardless of wether we've got there. This seems to work as you get a feel for the whole group's speed etc...

newcastlecaver said:

something from experience that I think is important is always being honest with yourself about call-out times and making sure there is always someone who can 'turn' the group back if necessary. ... they then get 2/3rds of the way to the bottom/ end and just decide to finish it anyway. This then results in them being late out and a rescue potentially be initiated....

Click to expand...

Tooo true.

It's so easy to get "almost there" and decide to push on to the end, even though you know it is going to make you late getting out or back or whatever.

You probably try to justify your decision with comments like "It won't take very much longer..." and "We can go a bit faster on the way back..."

Of course, it always does take a lot longer than you thought it would, and you can't go as fast on the way back as you fondly imagined, 'cos you're knackered..

I've found it true in other things - biking and fellwalking... Even taking the kids for a walk along the beach...

It takes a strong leader to resist the temptation!

Roger W said:

It takes a strong leader to resist the temptation!

Click to expand...

And the p*ss taking!

Half-a-cave Dave