Does anyone know if access is available to any of the Cwmystwyth Mines yet.

I don't think negotiations have reached that far.
I believe it's still all grilled.

Although I've not been up there for a good few years, I have a nostalgic interested having studied at (well, attended anyway) Aberystwyth. No urgent desire to visit myself, but it would be a shame if access were lost, though you could always abseil in the top way I suppose; not easy nor safe though, and not something I've tried myself.

There is talk along the lines of "sensitive negotiations, keep away for now etc"; so is there anyone actually doing any negotiating ?



Hywel

hyweldavies said:

Although I've not been up there for a good few years, I have a nostalgic interested having studied at (well, attended anyway) Aberystwyth. No urgent desire to visit myself, but it would be a shame if access were lost, though you could always abseil in the top way I suppose; not easy nor safe though, and not something I've tried myself.

There is talk along the lines of "sensitive negotiations, keep away for now etc"; so is there anyone actually doing any negotiating ?

Hywel

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The "Welsh Mines Preservation Trust" and "Welsh Mines Society" are the ones holding meetings with the relevant authorities.  I don't know what the current state of play is, but I understand it's still grilled (with big tall walls built around the open holes further up the hill to prevent access that way as well).

STOP PRESS
Cwmystwyth Mine


The Crown Estate are in the process of carrying out safety works at Cwmystwyth Mine, Ceredigion. After the works are complete, the WMPT is hoping to meet with the Crown and its agents, to discuss its involvement in the future management of the mine, and possible access agreement. Would member organisations please note our possible involvement with the future of this site, and please refrain from visits, until negotiations have taken place. Once talks have taken place with the Crown Estate, the Trust will advise NAMHO of arrangements that have been made. Thank You for your co-operation in this matter. G Levins, Secretary, Welsh Mines Preservation Trust, graham.levins@btinternet.com 

There has already been one break-in which has since been repaired.  Might be a good idea to give this place a miss for a couple of years until things have quietened down.  There are plenty of other mines in Mid Wales which are still open and need exploring.

Just to be clear on Graham's post, Welsh Mines Preservation Trust are hoping to negotiate at some unspecified time in the future, perhaps some years off. And, they ask that people keep away for some years. Cwmystwyth is probably the most interesting metal mine in Wales (along with Parc if that's still open), so various scrotty alternatives don't really compete.

Hardly compelling is it ?

Sorry to knock your post, as I know what it's like being on Committees (you can never do anything right), but this isn't a very plausible stance in this case. I'm ashamed to say I was a member of another committee many years ago pushing a very similar position, when in fact no negotiations were actually taking place at all.

Wouldn't there be better negotiating position if loads of people were going in, and you could offer the owner a controlled access agreement instead? Not that I'd be condoning trespass and ignoring property rights etc.

Regards

Hywel

Although I'm not a member of Welsh Mines Preservation Trust, I do keep an ear open to what's going on for the very reason you stated (it's an interesting place).  I understand WMPT made contact to retain underground access (and prevent damage to surface remains) before work even started on site.  Unfortunately despite these representations the grills appeared on all entrances.  I understand the first ones were damaged towards the end of last year/beginning of this year by someone forcing entry.  These were swiftly replaced by more substantial offerings which I understand are still in place.

Whilst the pace of progress may not be fast enough for some people, I am aware that WMPT are doing more than just sitting on their hands.  There was certainly at least one meeting during the summer ('cos I was notified about it) between interested parties trying to negotiate the future at Cwmystwyth.  If there is any remote glimmer of hope it is that Crown Estates are not totally against underground exploration.  During the Aber. NAMHO conference a couple of years ago Crown Estates were approached for permission to arrange underground field trips to Cwmystwyth.  Much to the organiser's suprise, with only a couple of provisos, permission was granted.  Of course since then, grant money has become available to redevelop the area and things have changed.

As for Parc, whether the grills are currently damaged and accessible or not, it's well known that Forest Enterprises in the Gwydwr Forest area do not permit any form of underground access, and have in the past actively prosecuted (and secured fines against) people who have been found to be going underground in their area.  As for other mines in Mid-Wales being "scrotty" holes...  well in that case there are some very interesting "scrotty" holes to be found elsewhere 

it's well known that Forest Enterprises in the Gwydwr Forest area do not permit any form of underground access, and have in the past actively prosecuted (and secured fines against) people who have been found to be going underground in their area.

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On what grounds are they prosecuted and how much is the fine?

Aye, prosecution requires a criminal offence, trespass is a civil offence and can only be pursued through the civil courts. Without damage, which might well constitute a criminal offence anyway, it would be difficult to demonstrate a material loss against which to sue.

Are you sure that is the case for active mines Graham, I wonder if there is something within the powers of the Mines Inspectorate that we are not aware of similar to the tresspassing on the railways laws etc.

I don't know, it's just a question and I know you will almost certainly have expert legal opinion on this. 

Les W said:

Are you sure that is the case for active mines Graham, I wonder if there is something within the powers of the Mines Inspectorate that we are not aware of similar to the tresspassing on the railways laws etc.

I don't know, it's just a question and I know you will almost certainly have expert legal opinion on this. 

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I was working on the basis that mines under the control of Forest Enterprises were not working mines, Les. Maybe I am wrong about this?

I think all mines remain, in law, under the authority of the mines inspectorate indefinitely.

I stand to be corrected on this of course.

Cannot believe that. There has to be a method of removing them from that control and in any case there has to be an exemption for "ancient" mines?

Told you I stood to be corrected  :-[

Les W said:

Told you I stood to be corrected  :-[

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Consider that in any mine which comes under the Inspectorate, there has to be an inspection at the start of every underground shift. There is no doubt that such inspections do not take place before visits to Box Mine or the Coniston Copper Mines to name but two.

I'm pretty sure this is covered in the BCA legal and access booklet (and I'm sure I don't need to remind you who had a major input to that Graham!) but I have loaned my copy to a deserving 'A' level student (there _are_ a few about) and have not had it back yet.

Having just become the owner of a mine, I probably ought to get to know this stuff!

Nick.

nickwilliams said:

I'm pretty sure this is covered in the BCA legal and access booklet (and I'm sure I don't need to remind you who had a major input to that Graham!) but I have loaned my copy to a deserving 'A' level student (there _are_ a few about) and have not had it back yet.

Having just become the owner of a mine, I probably ought to get to know this stuff!

Nick.

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Yeah, but Nick, there's no point in getting an authoritative answer when I can bullshit about it, is there. 

There appears to be nothing in "legal aspects" concerning the mines inspectorate or on the subject of laws concerning mines access (or lack of it or tresspass in mines, ect.)

The case in point was a number of years ago (presumably when it was still the Forestry Commision) and was reported in 'Descent' around that time.  Forestry Commision byelaws (usually) prohibit unauthorised entry of buildings/mines/lighting fires/damaging fences etc. etc unless under explicit permission.  I understand the fine was on the basis of similar byelaws.

Now I don't know through which courts the action was taken, and I can't remember what league the fine was in, but ultimately if the landowner wishes to pursue a trespesser through the civil courts for going underground without permission - that's up to them if they wish to invest the time and money in doing so.  I'm simply reminding people that in that part of North Wales the land owner has, in the past, successfully fined people, through the courts, for going underground without permission.  The situation up there has changed slightly in the last few years, and they do permit outdoor groups to visit one of their mines... but they haven't given blanket permission for everyone to go everywhere.

In our own area we have to purchase a license from our regional Forest Enterprises to visit/explore the mines in this neck of the woods.  The license specifies the sites we have permission to visit.  All the entrances are fenced off in woodland which is otherwise accessible to the public.  Again, I don't know how much the license costs (it isn't a huge amount) and it usually lasts for something like 3 years before needing to be renewed.



I have a funny feeling that trespass at a "working" mine/quarry becomes a criminal rather than civil offence if the mine/quarry stores explosives on site.  I think it has more to do with tresspass on properties used for the storage of explosives (where ever that may be), rather than simply because it's a working mine/quarry in itself.  I can't be bothered googling for the relevant references (I ought to be doing some work! ), but it comes under similar clauses to those which make trespass on "Network Rail's" property a criminal offence.

Ultimately a fine is a fine no matter which court the landowner has dragged you through!

Mine Explorer said:

Ultimately a fine is a fine no matter which court the landowner has dragged you through!

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That's the point. If it is a case in the civil courts, then it ain't a fine but the miscreant will have been sued for recovery of the landowner's losses. No quantifiable financial loss, nothing to sue for. If there is damage then there is something to sue for.