imminent permanent closure of Pridhamsleigh Cavern

mrodoc

mrodoc

Well-known member
:shrug:If anybody has a solution to this problem I would be glad to receive it.  The farmer is still fed up with people not paying.  The message is not getting through to the main regular users of the cave ie. commercial outdoor activity groups who unfortunately do not engage with caving organizations.  As they are the main source of income for the farmer and he feels DCUC cannot police them he is going to close the cave. Any bright ideas?
 
How crap is this!!.

So far this was my only try at caving (prefer mines i do!).  From memory when we went in the group leader put money in the box and put numbers of people U/G on a blackboard.  This was a local outdoor activity group as well.
 
Surely some money is better than none? - if the farmer shuts the site he will receive no income from it at all. Therefore, I guess he's just pissed off that people are going for free; in which case he will deny paying "customers" their access and himself their entry free. Seems a bit odd.

The only "fair" and workable solution is to have someone staffing the place, confronting visitors. If this isn't possible/do-able then the farmer must revert to taking what he gets, selling the site for whatever the market will stand (and hence passing the problem on to the new owners!) or physically barring access in such a way that either it's vandal-proof while allowing paying visitors a point of entry or barring the entrance completely in such a way that it doesn't conflict with any site specific bat activity there may be. The easiest thing is to do nothing and just take what you can get and shrug your shoulders when non-compliant groups abuse it.
 
There are a few things it would be helpful to clarify...

How often is this happening?
Are groups underpaying, not paying, or both?
How does the farmer currently monitor payments?
Is the suggestion that the problem is rooted in commercial centres something the farmer has specifically said or is this an assumption by others?
 
Andy Sparrow said:
There are a few things it would be helpful to clarify...

How often is this happening?
Are groups underpaying, not paying, or both?
How does the farmer currently monitor payments?
Is the suggestion that the problem is rooted in commercial centres something the farmer has specifically said or is this an assumption by others?
Click to expand...

Not wanting to start a north/south flame war but in Derbyshire this stuff just seems to work. Taking Giants as an example the  owner seems to have something like five to ten thousand people a year paying to go down. The commercial caving groups pay monthly by cheque the rest stick a few quid in an envelope. The charge is low enough to make you feel guilty for not paying and the farmer not be too bothered if you don't.
 
The farmer has a system akin to those described but people abuse it. He is not on site all the time but spots groups going down who clearly have not paid and is getting exasperated.  Having met him it is a little unclear exactly what he does want but he seemed to think DCUC would be able to approach all outdoor groups and threaten them.  If anybody wants to chat to him he hangs often in a caravan in the orchard just up the road on the right from the cave (right next to the farm house which he has sold).  The envelope/cash thing is not working as far as he is concerned. Groups involved have included scout groups.
 
whitelackington said:
Exactly, lower your price, more people will pay,
result larger income, everybody happy :idea:
Click to expand...

The farmer should not have to lower his income because of the dishonesty of some visitors. If someone habitually does not pay, then lowereing the price won't make them.

How much is it BTW?
 
mrodoc said:
The farmer has a system akin to those described but people abuse it. He is not on site all the time but spots groups going down who clearly have not paid and is getting exasperated.  Having met him it is a little unclear exactly what he does want but he seemed to think DCUC would be able to approach all outdoor groups and threaten them.  If anybody wants to chat to him he hangs often in a caravan in the orchard just up the road on the right from the cave (right next to the farm house which he has sold).  The envelope/cash thing is not working as far as he is concerned. Groups involved have included scout groups.
Click to expand...

Honesty systems like this can function well, but not if:

a)  Those visiting the cave take advantage and avoid payment

b)  The landowner is overly distrustful and suspicious

I have no way to know if we are dealing principally with a, b or a mixture of a and b.  Cavers are generally honest.  Farmers are, unfortunately, often inclined to be mistrustful.

I would make one more observation.  I find it hard to believe that managers of outdoor centres would send groups out in sign-written mini-buses with instructions to avoid payment, and therfore to risk exclusion, from the only site within 80 miles suitable for novice caving. 
 
If there are Scout group(s) abusing the farmer's requirements then DCUC could make an approach on his behalf to Scout HQ/regional adviser (shouldn't be too difficult to get the contact details) since all Scout groups are bound by the requirements of their own guidelines, viz:

http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs120408.pdf

Interesting to note that the official group size upper limit is 8. Any Scout group leaders failing to abide by the details contained within their own published guidelines is operating outside of acceptable procedure and would have to explain their reasons for so doing in the event that the trip was later subject to an investigation; the consequences could be awkward if their reasoning is not justifiable or sound, I guess.
 
cap 'n chris said:
If there are Scout group(s) abusing the farmer's requirements then DCUC could make an approach on his behalf to Scout HQ/regional adviser (shouldn't be too difficult to get the contact details) since all Scout groups are bound by the requirements of their own guidelines, viz:

http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs120408.pdf

Interesting to note that the official group size upper limit is 8. Any Scout group leaders failing to abide by the details contained within their own published guidelines is operating outside of acceptable procedure and would have to explain their reasons for so doing in the event that the trip was later subject to an investigation; the consequences could be awkward if their reasoning is not justifiable or sound, I guess.
Click to expand...

It actually says the "recommended" maximum party size is 8.  The scout organisation, like the BCA, has enough sense to a leave a window of flexibility.  Anyway, this is hardly relevant to the main issue, discussion of which is not going to benefit from taking a tangent into scout caving regulations.
 
Yes, good point Andy. However, there may be mileage in DCUC approaching the Scout Organisation or its regional caving adviser to disseminate access info specific to Prid around the Scout Troops most likely to visit the cave.
 
If it's only a pound per head, then the reason it isn't being paid by some groups/cavers is not going to be the cost. This is either ignorance of the need to pay, or sheer laziness, and an attitude of "I got away with it last time, so why should I bother this time?".

 
Maybe the farmer should decide what he does want.  If he's so disatisfied about the situation that he intends to prevent access then he's likely to still have spates of clandestine trips.  Those will probably piss him off even more.  However, he's in the same situation as many landowners who charge for access.  Unless he's prepared to stand around all day waiting for potential cavers to pop up and pay (or not) he's going to have to accept a certain amount of dishonesty.  At the end of the day he's getting revenue from something which just happens to be on his land and doesn't require anything in the way of maintenance, unless his real gripe is about damage to gates and livestock, in which case he'd really have something to get stroppy about.
 
Pleased to to report situation now calmed down. Cost is 1.50 and make sure it goes down the shute at the little shed by the entrance gate to the orchard.
 
Not wishing to comment on the rights and wrongs of charging for caving, is the owner not attracting the same liabilities and duty of care as any showcave owner, if they charge for entering the cave?

I might be out of touch but I thought cave 'owners' charged for car parking not caving - in a attempt to avoid charging for caving and the liability that might incur.

I await enlightenment if I am in error.

As an afterthought. Do centers or individual leaders pay landowners liability whilst taking groups caving?

Jopo
 
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