Was in Giants yesterday and noticed that a shiney new ring has been hung between the two p-bolts at the top of the Upper Series pitch down into Basecamp Chamber. It is similar to the ring hanging at the start of the traverses over the crabwalk, where two wires hang down from the p-bolts to the large steel ring forming a y-hang.

Just made me think, why is it there? What was wrong with two p-bolts? Is it something to do with rescue methods that i don't know about? Or just another way of putting off p-bolting pitches that really need doing?

these are normally installed in places where people like to do pull throughs.
If you thread the rope through the P hanger directly and frequently pull it through, then you can quickly wear out the P hanger.
the first cunning plan was to put a large maillion on the PHangers, this would wear out and be easily replaced. sadly they kept being "removed" so now we're on to a steel ring hung from 2 Phangers

Yup - DCA installed it a week or so ago for the very reasons CT stated. People where pulling ropes straight through the P bolts = worn out bolts.

Mallions kept getting nicked.

Filthy Five pitched could do with the same - should I ever get round to fixing the syphon at St Valentines. It would appear as though the pipes are blocked now.

Ok, sound reason. However, surely caves like Swinstow get 10x more pullthrough action and they don't have things like this. Or do they just replace their p-bolts loads?

Rob said:

Ok, sound reason. However, surely caves like Swinstow get 10x more pullthrough action and they don't have things like this. Or do they just replace their p-bolts loads?

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Swinsto is very clean washed and the ropes are, therefore, grit free. I predict this is not always the case in the Peak District .. although probably isn't too much of a problem in the crabwalk.

damian said:

Rob said:

Ok, sound reason. However, surely caves like Swinstow get 10x more pullthrough action and they don't have things like this. Or do they just replace their p-bolts loads?

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Swinsto is very clean washed and the ropes are, therefore, grit free. I predict this is not always the case in the Peak District .. although probably isn't too much of a problem in the crabwalk.

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The problem with these particular locations in Giants Hole is that instructors tend to lower clients on the rope, hence much higher wear rates that with just simple "pull throughs" as in Swinsto.

The use of the stainless steel ring which can rotate allows the wear to be more evenly spread and also for replacement without having to disrurb the P bolts. It is a scheme thought up by th eDCA and not used elsewhere as far as I know.

paul said:

The problem with these particular locations in Giants Hole is that instructors tend to lower clients on the rope, hence much higher wear rates that with just simple "pull throughs" as in Swinsto.

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Disgraceful behaviour when there is such simple alternatives (ie clip stop to p-bolt).

paul said:

The use of the stainless steel ring which can rotate allows the wear to be more evenly spread and also for replacement without having to disrurb the P bolts. It is a scheme thought up by th eDCA and not used elsewhere as far as I know.

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Seems like a good solution to the problem, just a shame the problem is there in the first place.

paul said:

The problem with these particular locations in Giants Hole is that instructors tend to lower clients on the rope,

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Which necessitates the use of at least a krab, so I don't see how it wears the rings anymore... unless I've just bitten!

stu said:

paul said:

The problem with these particular locations in Giants Hole is that instructors tend to lower clients on the rope,

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Which necessitates the use of at least a krab, so I don't see how it wears the rings anymore... unless I've just bitten!

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They pass the rope through the ring and lower the others to the bottom. Then as with usual pull-downs, you form a small loop on one side of the rope (still in the ring) near the half-way point and clip a krab into the loop. You then clip the other side of the rope and abseil down this side of the rope (the one WITHOUT the loop and krab). At the bottom you pull the other side of the rop (WITH the loop) to retrieve.

These items are specially made and NOT cheap. The DCA would not be installing them if they were not needed...

paul said:

stu said:

paul said:

The problem with these particular locations in Giants Hole is that instructors tend to lower clients on the rope,

Click to expand...

Which necessitates the use of at least a krab, so I don't see how it wears the rings anymore... unless I've just bitten!

Click to expand...

They pass the rope through the ring and lower the others to the bottom. Then as with usual pull-downs, you form a small loop on one side of the rope (still in the ring) near the half-way point and clip a krab into the loop. You then clip the other side of the rope and abseil down this side of the rope (the one WITHOUT the loop and krab). At the bottom you pull the other side of the rop (WITH the loop) to retrieve.

These items are specially made and NOT cheap. The DCA would not be installing them if they were not needed...

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Who does that? Are you sure they're "instructors" because I don't know one who would and none are ever taught too.

Modified bit now.... any instructor (or caver in charge of punters for that matter) would either use an Italian hitch; need - one krab, or use a Stop or GriGri

As for the pull through... cheers for the lesson (where's the tongue in cheek icon) but the technique's not just used by instructors and it certainly wouldn't have been instructors nicking the maillons hence the need for them anyway.

paul said:

They pass the rope through the ring and lower the others to the bottom.

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How? I'm intrigued.

cap 'n chris said:

paul said:

They pass the rope through the ring and lower the others to the bottom.

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How? I'm intrigued.

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The ring is at chest height at the top of the rift you've just traversed along - put rope through it, attach punter and off you go. I'd imagine that 'lowering' is a bit of a red herring, it's more of a safety/confidence rope as you'd struggle to fall down the rift, but with groups it's possible that it'd be very neccessary.

It's a regular rope motion that's the problem here...

underground said:

cap 'n chris said:

paul said:

They pass the rope through the ring and lower the others to the bottom.

Click to expand...

How? I'm intrigued.

Click to expand...

The ring is at chest height at the top of the rift you've just traversed along - put rope through it, attach punter and off you go. I'd imagine that 'lowering' is a bit of a red herring, it's more of a safety/confidence rope as you'd struggle to fall down the rift, but with groups it's possible that it'd be very neccessary.

It's a regular rope motion that's the problem here...

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I'll elaborate for the good Cap'n. No "instructor" with those darn pesky bits of paper would just run the rope through these rings. They would use a better alternative. In fact if whomever said that it's the fault of "instructors" possibly saw a "real" caver leading a group and made one hall of an assumption as to what they were i.e. an instructor.

Of course it's a problem ropes running through them, but that's pull thru's for you!

underground said:

cap 'n chris said:

paul said:

They pass the rope through the ring and lower the others to the bottom.

Click to expand...

How? I'm intrigued.

Click to expand...

The ring is at chest height at the top of the rift you've just traversed along - put rope through it, attach punter and off you go. I'd imagine that 'lowering' is a bit of a red herring, it's more of a safety/confidence rope as you'd struggle to fall down the rift, but with groups it's possible that it'd be very neccessary.

It's a regular rope motion that's the problem here...

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Surely running a rope directly through a metal loop to lower people is effectively the same as that proven and well known instructors' technique called "Body Belaying", then?

paul said:

The problem with these particular locations in Giants Hole is that instructors tend to lower clients on the rope, hence much higher wear rates that with just simple "pull throughs" as in Swinsto.

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Stu - absolutely agree!

Hi Paul,

Have you actually seen cavers/instructors lowering people on a rope off one of these rings/through the P-bolts with the loaded rope moving directly in the metal ring or P-bolts? I spend a lot of time in Giants and have never seen that. Normal practice would be to attach an inverted Stop to the ring (or P-bolts brought to a single point) with a krab and use this to lower people. Therefore no movement of the loaded rope over the metal ring or P-bolts. These techniques are trained and assessed under the LCMLA scheme and I'm sure that no technique which allowed a loaded rope to run in P-bolts or other fixed gear would be acceptable.

The reason that the rings have been installed (above the Crabwalk and in the upper stream passage) is to prevent damage to the P-bolts caused by cavers/instructors/all sorts of people pulling the ropes down after abseiling. I do not believe that it is anything to do with anyone lowering their clients.

Jules.

cap 'n chris said:

Surely running a rope directly through a metal loop to lower people is effectively the same as that proven and well known instructors' technique called "Body Belaying", then?

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No - just to be clear; no qualified instructors/cave leaders that I know would run a loaded, moving rope through a piece of fixed gear. If instructors in Derbyshire want to belay or lower someone up or down a pitch where there are P-bolts in place they will clip a Stop (or other friction device to the P-bolt(s)/metal ring and belay/lower them with that. I'm not going to body belay anybody when there are solid anchors (bolts) that can be used directly.

The installation was in consultation with PICA (Peak Instructed Caving Affiliation).

I am not commenting on practices used nor by whom, only the reasons the "rings" were installed. Prior to the recent intsalltions, the P bolts were getting rapid wear from lowering others down these particular pitches. Maillons were installed to be sacrificial so that these would be worn instead of the P bolts - but these were either nicked or severely damaged when anti-theft measures were taken and some still attempted removal. This lead to the development of the "ring" system.

Perhaps my use of the word "instructor" was not correct - I have not personally seen anyone using these anchors. It is known that some cavers do lower others using these anchors - hence the wear in the past. However I do know of queries from instructors on possible problems with karabiners and loops passing through the rings when perfroming pull-down abseils, so I assumed it was mainly instructors who were using them - probably this was in error and it is cavers other than instructors who are using them to lower other cavers instead of using a friction device such as a Stop.