Sport or game?

[Groundhog]

This subject may have been discussed here before but what the hell.
I find it a bit annoying that pastimes such as darts or snooker are sometimes called sports. I like to think that activities such as caving, climbing, skiing etc are true sports whilst ones like football, tennis or snooker are more properly called games. The Olympics are called games not sports. A sport can be indulged in on your own and does not require someone to either win or lose. A game on the other hand must have a competitive element.
This point of view throws up a few anomalies. Running on a track would be a game but running on the fells would qualify as sport. Similarly rock climbing on a crag, sport. Same thing on an indoor man made wall, game.
Perhaps we can come up with two lists for sports and games.
Pedantic perhaps but a great way to start an argument in the pub.

[bat]

So starting arguments in pubs should qualify as a game assuming there is a winner.
Possibly new Olympics event?

Just realised this post is the answer to life the universe and everything.

[smollett]

I find it interesting that people always feel the need to categorise things. It’s the same with music. People always try and pigeon hole bands into certain categories and then get upset when they release something in a different genre (eg. Bob Dylan moving away from folk in 60’s). Sport is such a loose term I think it is impossible to make sweeping statements about whether certain activities fit or not. People should just step back and take an activity for what it is, not classify things all the time.
Personally I think of sport as involving exercise. If you don’t sweat doing it then I find it hard to believe that it’s a sport. I have heard an argument that caving is not a sport since it’s not competitive, in that respect football is more of a sport than caving. It depends on your interpretation of the word sport!

[cap 'n chris]

Even the term "caving" is insufficient as a category for what cavers so, to such extent that there are sub-divisions/categories (call them what you will) to more accurately describe them, i.e. Sport Caving, Digging, "Tourist" trips, Photo trips, Pushing trips, surveying, spelaeology (i.e. cave science, and its numerous sub-divisions), conservation etc..

[smollett]

Council of Europe definition of sport:

"Sport" means all forms of physical activity which, through casual or organised participation, aim at expressing or improving physical fitness and mental well-being, forming social relationships or obtaining results in competition at all levels.

[cap 'n chris]

QED Caving isn't a sport, then.

[graham]

I thought that "sports" entailed killing something, as in "huntin' shootin' & fishin'" and that everything else was a "game" if competitive or a "pastime" if not competitive.

[Frog2]

Council of Europe definition of sport:

"Sport" means all forms of physical activity which, through casual or organised participation, aim at expressing or improving physical fitness and mental well-being, forming social relationships or obtaining results in competition at all levels.

Can this be re=written as

"Sport" means all forms of physical activity which, through casual or organised participation, aim at expressing or improving physical fitness and mental well-being or forming social relationships or obtaining results in competition at all levels.

(A comma being replaced by an 'or' between "well-being" and "forming".)

I take it that caving is a physical activity is a 'given' and that 'casual or organised' covers almost every trip.

I am not sure of the linkage of "physical fitness" and "mental well-being" but sure that not many cavers cave to improve physical fitness (but if caving often enough that would do something to improve fitness - if only for caving!). But the definition seems to link them - yes I do know of people whoese mental state seems improved after caving.

Also not too aware of competition caving other than some peoples efforts at recording quick trip times but are these true results?

Guess that leaves 'forming social relationships' - maybe this is where we fall down and caving does become a sport after all!



ps Doesn't mention killing in the so called definiton but it is European.

[cap 'n chris]

Sorry, Frog2, but I don't read the definition along those lines at all. I don't think that caving aims at any of those things. Caving, by default, is about experiencing the underground environment first hand. The other benefits (i.e. physical fitness, social networking) come as a result of doing it, and not as a primary aim.

[kay]

Why does one want to experience the underground environment first hand? Is it not to 'improve mental well being' through the sense of pleasure and wonderment that one obtains?

[cap 'n chris]

For many people starting out caving I'm pretty sure their experience is far removed from one of "pleasure"; as for "wonderment" perhaps they are wondering "What sort of weirdo enjoys this?".

[kay]

That would apply to all sorts of sports. What sort of weirdo enjoys running around a muddy field with all sorts of other weirdos bumping in to them? Or walking around a fairly boring bit of countryside knocking balls into holes? Or throwing pointy things at a  bit of board?

But people who actually practice 'the sport' and don't do it for physical challenge or whatever, and are doing it purely for the pleasure of being underground, presumably are deriving pleasure and wonderment from it.

Mind, that's a pretty pathetic definition of a sport. If pursuing mental well-being is all that's required, then doing the Grauniad crossword is a sport!

[wormster]

Who relay gives a s**te, its all excersise anyway

[Cookie]

Who relay gives a s**te, its all excersise anyway

[rant]
Well it does make a difference. Recently (within the last two years) our Government (UK Sport) has redefined sport so that there must be a competitive element, everything else is recreation.  UK Sport only funds sport, there is a clue in the name. The net result is no medals equals no funding. Thus what little money the Government used to give our national body is no more. Which annoys me because I pay taxes and would appreciate a small fraction of it to be spent on my sport of choice rather than football.

On the plus side, no money equals no string, we can, in theory, tell them to sod off when they enquire about our equality policy or better still our drugs policy. "Yes Mr Faceless Bureaucrat we put a lot of effort into our drugs policy - mostly in the Hunter's of a Saturday evening. Another pint please Roger."   
[/rant]
 

[SamT]

Very good point Cookie...

Im sure all the University Clubs will agree - having had all their funding cut by the various universities because caving doesn't win em medals.   


However - technically I agree, Caving is not a sport. Sport to me involves some element of competition against a rival.

I like to think of underground exploration as an 'honourable endevour'

[kay]

I like to think of underground exploration as an 'honourable endevour'

Strangely, I was pondering this when I woke up this morning. Ranulph Fiennes heading across polar regions = hero to be emulated. Cavers = must be mad = idiots waiting to be rescued. Why? Why doesn't caving have the glamour associated with other vaguely adventurous pursuits?

[graham]

It doesn't apply to all University clubs Sam. I can only speak for one, but we have spent years actively working at maintaining our position within the University and we have a good working relationship with the Union, both the sabbatical officers and the relevant permanent staff. Having said that our most reliable funding remains that which comes from our alumni.

And for that our students are eternally grateful (those that are aware of the situation, that is).

Kay, that perception is changing. For that we can thank the likes of Sid Perou, Gavin Newman and a number of thoughtful media types.

[fi]

However - technically I agree, Caving is not a sport. Sport to me involves some element of competition against a rival.

I like to think of underground exploration as an 'honourable endevour'

But if caving is not a sport why have numerous caving clubs (including the CDG) applied for (and in some cases gained) sports council grants and funding from other organisations for sporting endeavours?  Surely the application for such a grant indicates that the committees involved on both sides consider caving and cave diving to be a sport?  

[graham]

On a time funding was available from the various Sports Councils; what Cookie has said is that money is no longer available as the emphasis has shifted wholly to competitive sports. This has happened in the last couple of years.

[fi]

On a time funding was available from the various Sports Councils; what Cookie has said is that money is no longer available as the emphasis has shifted wholly to competitive sports. This has happened in the last couple of years.

Yes, that is true but whether funding is now available or not doesn't affect whether caving is a sport.  If a few years ago caving clubs felt that caving was a sport (so applied for sporting grants) why is it no longer a sport?  Just because funding is no longer available doesn't mean it's no longer a sport, just means it's not on a certain lists of sports that the government feels are worth funding. 

[bat]

Perhaps the caving clubs and or the NCA should award medals to there members for there caving trips. then it could be  classed as a sport, and we could all apply for lots of funding as there would be lots of medals.

[fi]

PS Wikipedia says:
"Caving, also called spelunking, is the recreational sport of exploring caves. In contrast, speleology is the scientific study of caves and the cave environment."

[graham]

Perhaps the caving clubs and or the NCA should award medals to there members for there caving trips. then it could be  classed as a sport, and we could all apply for lots of funding as there would be lots of medals.

I know a number of UK cavers who were awarded medals for exactly this reason, when caving in Pakistan.

Oh, and its "BCA". The NCA was dissolved some years ago.

[ian.p]

there are some diging competition(ish) things about does this mean sport caving is in fact not a sport whilst digging is...

[cap 'n chris]

If a few years ago caving clubs felt that caving was a sport (so applied for sporting grants) why is it no longer a sport? 

Oh look, over there!,... what's that?.... Aha, it's the freekin' OLYMPICS 2012. Call me a cynic ("Chris, you're a cynic") but I was under the impression that the Government long since started siphoning all available funding back towards supporting medal-attaining opportunites. Given that caving ain't an Olympic pastime, it's had all taxpayer-support money* sucked away from it forthwith. Roll on 2013.


* But as Cookie has pointed out, arguably caving doesn't need it.