Topic: Bad Air in Long Rake Mine, Bradwell Moor (Read 7664 times)

JB · « **on:** May 30, 2008, 08:02:48 am »

Message from Chris Broome (DCA)

DO NOT DESCEND LONG RAKE MINE, BRADWELL MOOR UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE

On the weekend of 24/25 May 2008 two cavers were taken seriously ill with Carbon Monoxide poisoning in Long Rake Mine on Bradwell Moor. The source of the Carbon Monoxide is not known and DCA are advising that cavers should not descend Long Rake until further notice.

http://www.thedca.org.uk/

Cave_Troll · « **Reply #1 on:** May 30, 2008, 09:02:56 am »

I've left a voice mail for the SUSS members who were planning to go down tonight.
Can't see anythign yet on the DCA website

Bat girl · « **Reply #2 on:** May 30, 2008, 10:40:50 am »

Yeah, i texted around 8:30. In fact i reckon Rob would have done too and likely others so have definately been warned!

psychomansam · « **Reply #3 on:** May 30, 2008, 11:30:35 am »

i txt'd too
sure they'll get the message...
:-)

LarryFatcat · « **Reply #4 on:** May 30, 2008, 01:47:05 pm »

Was up there on Saturday having a mooch around and saw it was rigged. There was a very strong wind blowing over the open lid. Something nasty may have been sucked out of the depths.

LarryFatcat · « **Reply #5 on:** May 30, 2008, 02:14:22 pm »

Also of course it has been closed season up there so they are maybe the first down for some time.

danthecavingman · « **Reply #6 on:** May 30, 2008, 03:59:06 pm »

I don't understand how it could possibly be Carbon Monoxide poisoning. Carbon Dioxide yes. CO is a product of incomplete combustion of carbon based fuels e.g. gas or petrol. I would find it very hard to believe there could be a build up of Carbon Monoxide underground unless a generator or somesuch was being used in a poorly ventilated area.

Dan.

Rob · « **Reply #7 on:** May 30, 2008, 04:09:21 pm »

Quote from: danthecavingman on May 30, 2008, 03:59:06 pm

I don't understand how it could possibly be Carbon Monoxide poisoning. Carbon Dioxide yes. CO is a product of incomplete combustion of carbon based fuels e.g. gas or petrol. I would find it very hard to believe there could be a build up of Carbon Monoxide underground unless a generator or somesuch was being used in a poorly ventilated area.

Or there may be Zinc down there.

Zn + CaCO3 → ZnO + CaO + CO

paul · « **Reply #8 on:** May 30, 2008, 04:53:13 pm »

Quote from: danthecavingman on May 30, 2008, 03:59:06 pm

I don't understand how it could possibly be Carbon Monoxide poisoning. Carbon Dioxide yes. CO is a product of incomplete combustion of carbon based fuels e.g. gas or petrol. I would find it very hard to believe there could be a build up of Carbon Monoxide underground unless a generator or somesuch was being used in a poorly ventilated area.

Dan.

There's a quarry not far away and blasting can produce Carbon Monoxide.

From the original report:
"It appears that a group of cavers got into difficulties at the weekend on the 5th pitch and struggled to get out with severe symptoms of what they thought was CO2 poisoning. They contacted emergency services on exit as they felt so bad and were admitted to hospital where Carbon MONOXIDE poisoning was diagnosed."

danthecavingman · « **Reply #9 on:** May 30, 2008, 06:35:56 pm »

Then perhaps someone has been banging the bottom of Long Rake and not letting other cavers know. There is no way that CO from the blasting at Earles could reach Long Rake.

Blood tests would be the only way of diagnosing Carbon Monoxide poisoning as the presence of Carboxyhaemaglobin would show up. Acute exposure to high levels of CO2 would produce similar but rapidly reversible effects to those of carbon monoxide poisoning. I.e. fatigue, headache, diziness, nausea. Carbon Monoxide is so insidious and poisonous that by the time any cavers had gone into an area where levels were high enough to produce those symptoms they would be dying anyway. Sounds like these guys were lucky. See this link - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/lifestyle/healthfitness/health_advice/netdoctor/archive/001144.html

So if someone has a banging project on the go down Long Rake and wants to fess up....

Pete K · « **Reply #10 on:** May 30, 2008, 06:51:43 pm »

The air quality seemed good down there before lambing season, even right at the bottom. I was considering starting a dig down there soon, may have to hold off for a bit though, see what happens. $:-\$

Mark · « **Reply #11 on:** May 30, 2008, 06:58:06 pm »

Ive got a triple gas detector on hire at the moment, would test for carbon monoxide, h2s and co2, if any one wants to go down and take this with them, it would alarm on the first traces of carbon monoxide, I need it back sunday though.

nickwilliams · « **Reply #12 on:** May 30, 2008, 07:49:21 pm »

Rather than let this fizzle out, I think it would be worth trying to get to the bottom of exactly what did cause the problems. While I've got no basis on which to dispute the hospital findings, I'm with Dan on being suspicious about this.

Carbon monoxide poisoning would be highly unusual in these circumstances and if indeed it was the cause of the group's difficulties then I'd rather like to know how it came to happen so it could be avoided in future, rather than it being treated as 'just one of those things'.

Is is possible for members of the party to explain what tests were done in order for the hospital to reach this conclusion?

Nick.

underground · « **Reply #13 on:** May 30, 2008, 09:39:18 pm »

Nick, agreed. I've stickied this one so it stays up in topic list...

Who's Chris Broome?

SamT · « **Reply #14 on:** May 30, 2008, 10:06:22 pm »

Can anyone take mark up on his offer of the gas detector - it would certainly answer any question of whether CO is present or not.

paul · « **Reply #15 on:** June 01, 2008, 03:33:49 pm »

Quote from: underground on May 30, 2008, 09:39:18 pm

Who's Chris Broome?

Assistant Secretary / Planning Liaison for DCA.

Taoist · « **Reply #16 on:** June 01, 2008, 05:04:34 pm »

Just a thought but is it possible these guys picked up the CO before they entered the mine?
The symptoms of CO poisoning can come on gradually and I'm guessing they would be noticed more with physical exertion, maybe these guys had a leaky exhaust in the car and picked up the CO on the drive?

underground · « **Reply #17 on:** June 02, 2008, 08:35:11 pm »

By all means continue the discussion (in fact please do!), but so people are aware - for clarity I've split Jenny Potts' 'DCA report' into a new locked sticky which can be found at the top of the Derbyshire forum. If anyone wants to provide an update to the situation please contact one of the mods....

SamT · « **Reply #18 on:** June 02, 2008, 09:16:14 pm »

I think taosists suggesting possibly has some gravity. Anyone I have spoken to is finding it very hard to believe that this is the cause of thier difficulties. CO2 possibly, rather than CO.

It would be interesting to see if someone (perhaps from dca) could talk to the hospital about this. (could the abulance have had a leaky exhaust on the way to the hospital

). Just because CO appeared on the hospitals tests, doesnt mean its direct evidence of the cause of thier illness.

The blasting fumes thing just doesnt seem to add up to me, if there was a draught blowing from the quarry face and into long rake, and supposing *enough* fumes did get carried along (the volume of air in long rake is pretty vast, its hardly a small pokey place) then surely they'd carry on moving and pressumably up the chimney like shaft.

There is an active stream way in the bottom, and its possible that this is giving off some sort of gas.

I think DCA ought to act on this in some way to clear up any doubt to prevent any issues with access to the place.

nickwilliams · « **Reply #19 on:** June 02, 2008, 09:46:57 pm »

I've seen an e-mail this evening which indicates that the hospital did indeed do blood tests, and the result was 10% CO poisoning. I also understand that an enquiry is being made to the quarry to find out when they were last blasting.

Does anyone know if there is an accurate survey of the mine, and if so where is it published?

Nick.

SamT · « **Reply #20 on:** June 02, 2008, 10:09:22 pm »

I think SUSS did the surveying some time back. perhaps they have a decent survey.

LarryFatCat of this site has some stuff he emailed me recently - I'll dig it out.

its still a fair way off the quarry face...

nickwilliams · « **Reply #21 on:** June 02, 2008, 10:19:40 pm »

Quote from: SamT on June 02, 2008, 10:09:22 pm

its still a fair way off the quarry face...

Agreed, but it's important not to rule anything out yet. If these guys had failed to come out under their own steam, it's entirely possible that they and anyone trying to rescue them would have been fatalities.

Nick.

SamT · « **Reply #22 on:** June 02, 2008, 10:31:19 pm »

aye - agreed.

I still think someone ought to speak to Mark about his Gas Detector, Im on nightshift at the moment so out of action somewhat.

Johnny · « **Reply #23 on:** June 03, 2008, 06:36:20 am »

I don't think that an investigation should just concentrate on blasting in Earl Quarry.
Moss Rake is a lot closer, are they looking into blasting there?

Rob · « **Reply #24 on:** June 03, 2008, 08:59:54 am »

Quote from: nickwilliams on June 02, 2008, 09:46:57 pm

Does anyone know if there is an accurate survey of the mine, and if so where is it published?

Nick, I have just emailed you the information that LarryFatCat distributed by email a few weeks ago. Includes surveys and descriptions.

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