Simpsons survey + topo ??
- Thread starter Geoff R
- Start date
cap n chris
Well-known member
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cap n chris
Well-known member
Er, nothing, GeoffR! - they're all I could find on t'interwebnet - sadly not at sufficiently high resolution to be any use to you, I reckon. What's needed is someone who knows whereabouts a higher resolution version exists. Crossing fingers may help. 
cap 'n chris said:Er, nothing, GeoffR! - they're all I could find on t'interwebnet - sadly not at sufficiently high resolution to be any use to you, I reckon. What's needed is someone who knows whereabouts a higher resolution version exists. Crossing fingers may help.
Indeed fingers crossed - thanks anyway Chris
I rigged down Swinsto a few weeks ago, so just doing my homework for my birthday trip weekend
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Although you might think me a little pedantic, the name you give for this fine pothole (along with 99.999% of the UK caving population) is wrong. It's properly called "Simpson" Pot. The original survey of the pothole provided by Captain Chris bears the name Simpson Pot. This is almost certainly not what you wanted to know - so, to try to be helpful here's a few ideas.
Firstly, a version of that original survey is widely available in the book Underground Adventure by Gemmell & Myers on page 30 (published in 1952 but reprinted in 1990 by Mendip Publishing). This will be in many caving libraries and with a lot of folk who collect caving books. (Note the name of the relevant chapter is "The Intricacies of Simpson Pot" - bear in mind that this was written by the people who explored the pothole therefore their name for it should be right!)
Secondly, pages 136 & 137 of David Heap's classic Dales caving book Potholing Beneath The Northern Pennines have a slightly larger version of the original survey - but here the original survey title is removed and the page is labelled "Simpson's" Pot. Again, this book is widely available.
Thirdly, the magnificent survey of the West Kingsdale System by ULSA is still fairly accessible, even if it's out of print currently (I'm not certain of this by the way - I was told it a while ago though). If you can't buy a copy you could always have a look at one on a club hut wall (e.g. the NPC). Or you might like to speak to footleg who posts on this forum and is co-ordinating a resurvey of the West Kingsdale System; he may be able to help.
Finally, if you really wanted to see it, I could probably get at a large version of the original survey - but it'd take some effort so only PM me about this if it's of real interest and I'll see what I can do.
Firstly, a version of that original survey is widely available in the book Underground Adventure by Gemmell & Myers on page 30 (published in 1952 but reprinted in 1990 by Mendip Publishing). This will be in many caving libraries and with a lot of folk who collect caving books. (Note the name of the relevant chapter is "The Intricacies of Simpson Pot" - bear in mind that this was written by the people who explored the pothole therefore their name for it should be right!)
Secondly, pages 136 & 137 of David Heap's classic Dales caving book Potholing Beneath The Northern Pennines have a slightly larger version of the original survey - but here the original survey title is removed and the page is labelled "Simpson's" Pot. Again, this book is widely available.
Thirdly, the magnificent survey of the West Kingsdale System by ULSA is still fairly accessible, even if it's out of print currently (I'm not certain of this by the way - I was told it a while ago though). If you can't buy a copy you could always have a look at one on a club hut wall (e.g. the NPC). Or you might like to speak to footleg who posts on this forum and is co-ordinating a resurvey of the West Kingsdale System; he may be able to help.
Finally, if you really wanted to see it, I could probably get at a large version of the original survey - but it'd take some effort so only PM me about this if it's of real interest and I'll see what I can do.
langcliffe
Well-known member
If you simply want advice on the rope required, then a 30 m rope will suffice for all pitches except Slit Pot, where you need 2*30 m. Simply follow the line of P-bolts through the cave, and make sure that you traverse over The Pit (often mistakenly called Bob's Pit, which is elsewhere - see http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,5206.msg73093.html#msg73093 !). The first pitch is a sequence of straightforward short drops. The Pit is the next hole in the floor (after about 20-30 m).Geoff R said:
footleg
Member
As far as I am aware, the 1977 West Kingsdale survey is still available for sale in shops in Ingleton. My resurvey project has not got as far as Simpson Pot yet, so I can't provide anything more recent.
Not that a survey is essential to finding your way if you already know Swinstos. Simpon Pot will land you in the Swinsto streamway just before the final pitch. You only need to know to avoid the Pit (see previous post) and don't panic when you get to what appears to be a sump part way down the cave. There is a duck back under in the pool which appears at first glance to be a sump. Almost back the way you were going, but in the water. Obvious once you see it, but I remember the panic on my first trip where we thought we had met a sump after pulling the rope down!
Not that a survey is essential to finding your way if you already know Swinstos. Simpon Pot will land you in the Swinsto streamway just before the final pitch. You only need to know to avoid the Pit (see previous post) and don't panic when you get to what appears to be a sump part way down the cave. There is a duck back under in the pool which appears at first glance to be a sump. Almost back the way you were going, but in the water. Obvious once you see it, but I remember the panic on my first trip where we thought we had met a sump after pulling the rope down!
Cave Mapper
Member
The 1997 book 'Selected Caves of Britain and Ireland' by Marshal and Rust, which is still widely available, gives a good description of the pull-through trip, with recommended rope lengths - everything you need to complete the trip.
It's a shame the survey is out of print and hard to find. It was a superb piece of work.
Here's the microscope version:
Trips such as Simpson's are so much more rewarding when you can study the survey to see how it all fits together.
It's a shame the survey is out of print and hard to find. It was a superb piece of work.
Here's the microscope version:
Trips such as Simpson's are so much more rewarding when you can study the survey to see how it all fits together.
Cave Mapper
Member
Pitlamp said:
There's a good shoppe in Ingleton to buy potholing tackle for Sympson Potte.
zucca
New member
Hey, I can vouch for the "Selected Caves" description!
With very little previous knowledge me and another 2 valiant guys went to "Simpson Pot" last sunday (24/05/09). I had been there as my second SRT trip 4 years ago and the only things I could remember were getting stuck in a fissure over a pitch (slit pot) and the solution pockets in Valley Entrance. The other two had never been there. We had just the description with us and two very long ropes (2x44): even though we were very slow and it took us over 4 hours for the pull through trip (without the rope getting stuck), there was no major disaster.
I believe that better rope lengths would be 30 (all the pitches minus slit pot) and 55 (only slit pot). And as people said, beware of Bob's pit. Traverse over the first plausible hole you see and you're sorted: the P bolts are there to rig a traverse line for novices and softies like myself.
Ah, one last thing, there is a not too scruffy looking rope in situ in Valley entrance. If you trust it you can save yourself 30 minutes of extra faff to pre-rig it.
cheers, z
With very little previous knowledge me and another 2 valiant guys went to "Simpson Pot" last sunday (24/05/09). I had been there as my second SRT trip 4 years ago and the only things I could remember were getting stuck in a fissure over a pitch (slit pot) and the solution pockets in Valley Entrance. The other two had never been there. We had just the description with us and two very long ropes (2x44): even though we were very slow and it took us over 4 hours for the pull through trip (without the rope getting stuck), there was no major disaster.
I believe that better rope lengths would be 30 (all the pitches minus slit pot) and 55 (only slit pot). And as people said, beware of Bob's pit. Traverse over the first plausible hole you see and you're sorted: the P bolts are there to rig a traverse line for novices and softies like myself.
Ah, one last thing, there is a not too scruffy looking rope in situ in Valley entrance. If you trust it you can save yourself 30 minutes of extra faff to pre-rig it.
cheers, z
langcliffe
Well-known member
zucca said:
The reason why I recommended 2 * 30 m ropes for a pull-through was that either of the ropes can be used for any of the pitches, apart from Slit Pot where you need to tie them together. This allows two relatively short ropes to be taken through, and also allows members of the party to leap-frog where the smaller pitches are close together without the need to manhandle a long rope on short pitches.
Lurker
Member
Naughty zucca :spank: :tease: !!
I did a trip there last November and we got our rope hideously stuck when trying to pull through Slit Pot. After half an hour bouncing around trying to retrieve it we were about to give up when another party arrived above and retrieved it for us (thanks if you're reading this :bow
. Apparently the trick is to us the two p-hangers which are both on the same wall of the slit.Lurker
langcliffe
Well-known member
zucca said:
Unfortunately, "Selected Caves" got it wrong - it's The Pit.
See http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,5206.msg73093.html#msg73093
Thanks All
I called Inglesport today and regretfully they don?t sell topo?s or surveys for Simpsons (as I suspected) but Johnny gave excellent advice from personal experience and pages 63 & 64 of Northern Caves Volume 3
With the excellent help from everyone I?m much happier
Being careful on risk management I like to do my homework, especially as I had heard mention of a duck and possible (embarrassingly) wrong route. Unfortunately I did not have time to access club libraries (partly due to the remaining time til the trip and partly due to the fact Im in Germany mid-week...... like right now).
So thanks everyone and Im sure it will be another excellent pull-through, but if there happens to be a topo & survey knocking around somewhere I'm of course still interested
I called Inglesport today and regretfully they don?t sell topo?s or surveys for Simpsons (as I suspected) but Johnny gave excellent advice from personal experience and pages 63 & 64 of Northern Caves Volume 3
With the excellent help from everyone I?m much happier
Being careful on risk management I like to do my homework, especially as I had heard mention of a duck and possible (embarrassingly) wrong route. Unfortunately I did not have time to access club libraries (partly due to the remaining time til the trip and partly due to the fact Im in Germany mid-week...... like right now).
So thanks everyone and Im sure it will be another excellent pull-through, but if there happens to be a topo & survey knocking around somewhere I'm of course still interested
Both are valid options for choices of ropes, the only thing I would say is; if you have two 30s and one gets stuck and you can't go back up or retrieve it you're left with one 30m rope which is too short to pull-through on Slit. You could get down by rigging it normally but then there is still the final pitch to do (which could potentially be climbed but depends on how competent you are I guess), whereas the other way using the 30m and assuming it was to get stuck prior to Slit you still have the 55m left which is ample for Slit (of course it too could get stuck on on that pitch and you would be buggered and probably a very unlucky party!)
langcliffe
Well-known member
Lurker said:
If you're on your own, you have to get it right first time, but with two or more cavers in the party it's easier enough to check before the last person comes down.
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