Peter Burgess said:

Ultimately, it isn't tapes or gates that protect caves, it's the cavers' better understanding of their actions.

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There's the answer to the whole Draenen issue right there.

Is there anyone who has posted on this thread and the other associated threads that doesn't understand and accept that ?  I bet there isn't.

Now all we (as cavers) need to acknowledge is that some of us go about doing this in different ways. Even if that way is not the way we (individually) would do it, at least we should accept that we all (on here as postee's in any event) hold the same values.

:halo:

Ian

Peter Burgess said:

better understanding of their actions.

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What does this mean, though?

Many cavers have no (arguably worthwhile) reason to be in a cave other than just for the fun of it (indeed, at least one Mendip club appears to be based on that very premise).

cap 'n chris said:

Peter Burgess said:

better understanding of their actions.

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What does this mean, though?

Many cavers have no (arguably worthwhile) reason to be in a cave other than just for the fun of it (indeed, at least one Mendip club appears to be based on that very premise).

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Recreation? Enjoyment? Sightseeing? Exploration?

Do you need a "reason" ?

(I don't know the Mendip club and wonder if you mean they have a different agenda?)

:

Ian

Jackalpup said:

Do you need a "reason" ?

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[devil's advocate]

Morally? Yes.

Especially when one acknowledges that each and every journey underground has an impact upon the cave environment.

[/devil's advocate]

Cap'n Chris,

I can see your point but just can't agree.

Should we all stop walking up mountains on a Sunday afternoon out with the family because we are damaging the footpaths?

Should we remove the sheep because they are dumping all over the mountainsides?

Should we stop recreationally rock climbing because it is damaging the rockface?

Should we stop jumping out of aeroplanes (for fun) because the aircraft is damaging the environment ?

Should we stop watching television recreationally because it is using electricity and depleting our coal supplies ?

The caving club I am a member of has weekly trips during the week and sometimes Sundays trips. Everyone of them is for our own enjoyment - should we stop and close the club down ?

I know you are playing Devil's advocat, but seriously .......



Ian

..... it leads us back to this bit which got me intrigued in the first place....

Jackalpup said:

Peter Burgess said:

Ultimately, it isn't tapes or gates that protect caves, it's the cavers' better understanding of their actions.

Click to expand...

There's the answer to the whole Draenen issue right there.

Is there anyone who has posted on this thread and the other associated threads that doesn't understand and accept that ?  I bet there isn't.

Click to expand...

I don't understand it, frankly. The words "the cavers' better understanding of their actions" sounds meaningful but it's got me bewildered. People cave for lots of reasons and one of the most common must surely be the enjoyment of it. If I understand that I enjoy caving does that make my trip underground a conservation one?



Put simply, how can "understanding our actions" be "the answer to the Draenen issue" that you claim it to be?

Cap 'n Chris,

I think your bewilderment comes from your (apparent) "opinion" that conservation is the "be all and end all" of caving.

It isn't.

Other people cave for other reasons (simply because they like the adventure of being underground for example).

What Peter Burgess appears to have been saying was that cavers understanding the implications of their actions (ie. footfall, don't play with formations etc.) is a better solution than taping everything off.

I think that (probably) all cavers going into Draenan are aware of their actions and are behaving responsibly and whether they are or not, if they all were, then wouldn't that be the solution to the Draenen problems?



Ian

Jackalpup said:

What Peter Burgess appears to have been saying was that cavers understanding the implications of their actions (ie. footfall, don't play with formations etc.) is a better solution than taping everything off.

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Taping works a treat, provided it is respected.

Removal of the emotive word "everything" makes a far better sentence (I doubt few, if any, people would recommend taping off every last bit of vulnerable cave passage/formation, for example!).

However... I still believe that taped areas stand a far better chance of preservation than simply relying on cavers being cautious about where they wander; if you think about it, I'm sure you, and others, too, will find agreement with this.

Taping is not the bogeyman many cavers seem to think it is - it is generally a highly effective, ultra-low-impact, conservational tool.

cap 'n chris said:

I still believe that taped areas stand a far better chance of preservation than simply relying on cavers being cautious about where they wander; if you think about it, I'm sure you, and others, too, will find agreement with this.

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I can't disagree with that Chris and and as I said right at the very outset of my input, I am pro-conservation (or preservation).

However, you aren't giving any consideration that there are other aspects to caving (ie. recreational, exploratory, adventure, digging etc etc.) Taping destroys the enthusiastic photographer's dream of getting that "perfect picture" so it isn't for everyone (I am not suggesting tape shouldn't be used, just presenting another side).

Peter's suggestion that cavers have a better understanding is valid whether areas are taped or not. I have been with new cavers and before entering a cave (or mine) have given them a short prep talk on "do's and don?ts" which includes not touching formations. In the passageways where we have encountered formations (moonmilk for example), I have repeated the same thing (because I know people forget in the excitement of the moment and they DO want to touch them). Even having been told a second earlier, some of the new cavers HAVE touched it and left a finger imprint.

This frustrates me ever bit as much as I guess it will have just frustrated you reading this .... I am not sure a piece of tape around that moonmilk (which I am using as an example only) would have stopped those people touching it as they ignored a verbal instruction only seconds before.

I am still posting with the best of intentions



Ian

Your "Do's and Don'ts" gave me a wry smile as one of the apparent rights of passage with some cave leaders is to recommend newbies engage in mud fights - you'd have kittens!

A good photographer should often and/or easily be able to get excellent shots without tape in sight by intelligent composition of the shot - another method is to put the camera so close to the tape that the tape is out of shot.

It's perhaps worth noting that most conservation wardens would immediately remove someone from a cave if they ignored instructions not to touch the formations, and there would probably be a lot of shouting going on, too. 

Mud and sediments within many caves are 'formations', and consideration to their importance should be given.
See any cave conservation report form.
O. G. Mud fights indeed :chair: :spank:

Indeed! - mud slinging (pardon the pun) and mud sculpting is contrary to the BCA Ethical Caving Code yet the evidence of it is commonplace in certain caves.

On a trip to see The Columns in OFD several years ago, as we approached them, we passed a caver attempting to smooth out the welly prints right through taped off mud formations and could see the walls plastered with globs of mud after someone had also thrown the mud around.

So even with taped-off areas, a gate and leader-led trips (as a trip to The Columns should be), you have to account for the bone-heads who also go caving.

cap 'n chris said:

A good photographer should often and/or easily be able to get excellent shots without tape in sight by intelligent composition of the shot - another method is to put the camera so close to the tape that the tape is out of shot.

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It is worth pointing out that a dedicated photographer could remove the tape from his shot, provided he (or she) didn't cross where it was, and provided they put it straight back once they had acquired the shot. Tape is not physically and immovably secured in place.

This is obviously not to be encouraged but is a further option for photographers that object to having tape in their pictures.

Jackalpup said:

Cap'n Chris,

I can see your point but just can't agree.

Should we all stop walking up mountains on a Sunday afternoon out with the family because we are damaging the footpaths?

Should we remove the sheep because they are dumping all over the mountainsides?

Should we stop recreationally rock climbing because it is damaging the rockface?

Should we stop jumping out of aeroplanes (for fun) because the aircraft is damaging the environment ?

Should we stop watching television recreationally because it is using electricity and depleting our coal supplies ?

The caving club I am a member of has weekly trips during the week and sometimes Sundays trips. Everyone of them is for our own enjoyment - should we stop and close the club down ?

I know you are playing Devil's advocat, but seriously .......



Ian

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Should we help repair the footpaths?

What damage does sheep shit do?

I believe rock climbers have an etiquette about certain damaging practices.

Quite possibly, yes.

Put a wind turbine on your roof?

Use at least some of the trips to help in active conservation work - or would that not be enjoyable?

Sadly, the point has yet again been missed (or deliberately evaded).

?Conservation? is ONE aspect of caving and we all have our opinions on it (some more than others of course).

It is not for any of us (unless appointed in law) to demand that others accept our opinions and then command dominion over them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with suggesting, requesting and so forth but we simply do not have the right to police each other.

Cap ?n Chris, you keep pulling the issue back to protecting features with tape and I have no real problem with that (I was supporting Peter?s view which I thought was eminently sensible).

Les, you are of course right with the example of the photographer. I was merely putting forward that other people see things in different ways although I believe that the vast majority of cavers do respect the environment.

Graham, Well ??

Guys, I do mean well and as I have said several times, this kind of arguing has ruined caving in North Wales ? I was (am) just trying to find some common sense with the Draenen problems because I can well see the same problems occurring there as currently occur here in North Wales.




Ian

Jackalpup

What, exactly do you mean by "unless appointed in law"?

Would you include a cave management group that has been delegated authority by a landowner or only one that has actual ownership of the relevant land itself?

Jackalpup said:

Cap ?n Chris, you keep pulling the issue back to protecting features

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Poor Ian! - you're getting the third degree, or at least you appear to be!... I apologise if you feel I've been getting at you, it certainly hasn't been my intention. No, the reason conservation has featured to a large extent in these digressions is because of this thread's relation to the Draenen topic... a topic which has a very major conservation element to it. IM(H)O, taping vulnerable parts of Draenen which may be subject to increased footfall is the only effective and easy short-term measure which can be (almost) relied upon for protection. Hoping, wistfully, that cavers will be responsible and conservation-minded is a nice bit of rose-tinted-spectacle-wearing. In other caves it may well be adequate; that's for whatever management group who oversee the cave(s) to decide. However, from a conservationist's viewpoint placing tape to protect delicate features is a wise precaution, whether or not it is found annoying by others etc..

However, what you or I may prefer as a protective measure isn't always going to be the most effective answer.

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All you knuckleheads who ignored the last part of my post missed the point I was making. Everyone appreciating what their impact is, and doing their best to minimise it within the limits possible - given that they are still going to enter caves - is an ideal. Boneheads will always mess places up irreversibly because they don't care, don't understand, or are just plain malicious. That's why...

what you or I may prefer as a protective measure isn't always going to be the most effective answer.

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Posting with the very best of intentions.....