I have only posted a couple of things on UK Caving.  The first was a genuinely curious request about photos of Peak Dale Tunnel's pretty formations.  This gave rise to a hornet's nest of grumpy claims, counter claims and accusations which seems to be ongoing.

What a shame.  I do not approve of cavers keeping cave sites, or in this case the site of a tunnel, secret.  It leads to misunderstandings and to people unwittingly stumbling across places that others have kept secret.  With digs, discoveries and the like, I firmly believe that if you are open about them,  people will respect this.  If people then pirate your dig or go into a place that is off limits because of an agreement with a landowner or because, like Peak Dale Tunnel, it has beautiful and fragile formations, they have no excuse.

Secrets are for M15, not for the caving world, in my view.

Perhaps someone else can confirm or deny this but in the USA the existence of many (most?) caves of note is shrouded in secrecy; whether this is a conservation strategy or a traditional powerplay I do not know. The UK, by comparison, is public domain! Digs, and digging, though is often secret (mostly because it's boring).

While I can only comment on Mammoth Cave in Kentucky (which is hard to hide, being 800mi of cave), I do know that personal property laws are a lot more strict in the USA than in the UK. If someone owns the land where a cave entrance happens to be, they have every right to keep it a secret, charge entry, let people freely explore it, etc, as they see fit. National Parks have their own access rules depending on which state and what sort of park it is, so even caves in parks might not be easily accessible depending on where they are.

However, I do agree (especially in the UK) that cave sites shouldn't be kept secret, if anything it encourages people to find the cave. If they know "oh, this is X cave, which is off-limits" they are less likely to explore it (as opposed to "oh, here's an opening, let's go!" or "I really want to find this mysterious cave Y")

CB said:

I do not approve of cavers keeping cave sites, or in this case the site of a tunnel, secret.

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Do you own them or have responsibility for their upkeep? if not, then, sorry but your approval is not needed

CB said:

If people then pirate your dig or go into a place that is off limits because of an agreement with a landowner or because, like Peak Dale Tunnel, it has beautiful and fragile formations, they have no excuse.

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i really don't care if they have no excuse, or even if they are very very sorry. if the site has been trashed, it has been trashed. It's too late.

And, yes, I am all too aware of sites that have been intentionally vandalised shortly after they were discovered.

Cap'n Chris said:

Perhaps someone else can confirm or deny this but in the USA the existence of many (most?) caves of note is shrouded in secrecy; whether this is a conservation strategy or a traditional powerplay I do not know. The UK, by comparison, is public domain! Digs, and digging, though is often secret (mostly because it's boring).

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It is both cultural and geographic. As Filter notes, US law gives greater (though not total - there are cave conservation laws) leeway to landowners in the US than it does in the UK (a situation which may get worse if some zealots end up getting their way) but it is also the case that in areas of much lighter population, both of cavers and of people in general, it is rather easier to keep some sites secret. I do remember that vast numbers of folks we saw in My Cave in WV though. A cave that had clearly suffered a lot of wear and tear.

Age old power plays.

I know something you don't know...

Now I know the world has gone mad, when Graham calls somebody else a zealot.
By and large I agree with the original post.

Nothing in reality is simply black or white, and I saddened when I read the views of people who would wish it were so, or believe that it is. So I don't agree with the OP, neither with those who would always keep things secret regardless of the circumstances.

When you've seen mine artifacts go missing due to selfishness, or damage made to features by folks who didn't know the layout or the care needed to progress, as I have, it is infuriating, especially when a lot of time and effort has gone into the exploring and recording. The artifacts are not usually returned, and damage cannot usually be fixed. So personally, I keep projects quiet now until they're ready to go public. Apart from anything else, in vertical sites, rigging may be arranged in an ad-hoc or otherwise 'cavalier' fashion specifically to make progress quick and easy for the diggers, who know the situation well. But anyone else not familiar with that rigging, or the considered risks involved in using it, may easily come a cropper. Then a rescue might be needed from our dig site, which could both compromise its integrity and/or its security. The landowner may be aware of a dig on their land, or they may not, but they certainly will be once Cave Rescue and/or the Police turn up.

From experience, I find that not many cavers are prepared to roll their sleeves up and get digging, or even do much exploring. A recreational trip is all they want, and that's fine, but if you want new venues, then get the shovel out, frankly. I'm constantly finding new features in known sites, but it requires looking and thinking as much as abseiling and prussicking. There's plenty of projects to start out there, and a vast number of sites available to play in, so why complain about not being told about projects? Go and do one!

A number of very good points there, Phil. When I was (a lot) younger I used to be on the side of non-secrecy but have learned better with experience over the years. It is certainly true that there are is lot of stuff out there to go at - even just looking through COTPD there are no end of entries that are potential digs and are listed as such. When Brian Webb and I finished our Middleton Flats dig/research/survey and I got it written up for Mining History I looked round for the next project and was spoiled for choice. As Phil says "Go and do one!".

As everyone knows I'm in favour of more openness and less secrecy...
And personally - if having made a decent discovery i'd want to share it with the world...

Having said that...I can at least respect pwholes attitude...

If you didn't make the effort to discover it yourself do one...

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At least there's no dressing it up in terms of landowner attitudes, conservation or other flim-flammery

Fair do's

Who's M15 anyway?

Antwan said:

Who's M15 anyway?

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It's a secret...

Spike said:

Antwan said:

Who's M15 anyway?

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It's a secret...

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Set myself up for that one 

In cases where a dig has the landowner's permission, and is a known site, then I think it would be churlish not to publish results - but still only at the appropriate time, for the reasons I outlined above. Obviously exploration of new stuff is in everyone's interests, and so long-term, it's imperative that work is put in the public domain. Sometimes it's more complex, especially with other legislative bodies to deal with who may have special interests, and they may ask for restrictions or delays to be put on publication of details. Sometimes access is only via someone's private garden - then what? If I'd struck up a personally-negotiated agreement to use someone's garden or private property as access, it's highly unlikely that they would want the general caving community to also have access on the grounds that it was an 'important' site. Eyam Dale House is one good example where access was granted on those terms, but I guess that's mostly because of the good relationships John Beck had fostered over many years of living and working in the village.

And sometimes, there are digs where there is no permission at all, and it's all basically dodgy from top to bottom in a legal sense, but the results are still important and are still occasionally published regardless - I can think of at least one case like that. But in those instances, publishing details of the dig itself or any aspect of the site, especially on an open forum, would be a bit daft if you wanted to stay in the exploration game.

So, if someone wants the Moon on a stick, first find your own stick then go find your own moon. Makes perfect sense!

jasonbirder said:

... conservation or other flim-flammery

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It's a little wonder some of our caves are in such poor condition. 

A very important archeological site and bat roost was kept fairly secret a good while ago resulting in the quarry company destroying it as there was nobody around to prevent it. RIP Cannington Cavern.

Obviously its not a zero-sum game...

Its alright uncovering your own stuff...then having an "our find-our cave attitude" and I can understand that...nothing about caving says it has to be a social/sharing/inclusive hobby...

BUT there are a limited number of accessible caves/potential caves...and I for one am glad that the discoverers of Lancaster Hole/OFD/P8 etc etc didn't have that attitude!

So a big heartfelt thanks to ALL the past and present cavers/diggers that DO get on with their fellow cavers and share their discoveries for the benefit of all the caving community

graham said:

Cap'n Chris said:

Perhaps someone else can confirm or deny this but in the USA the existence of many (most?) caves of note is shrouded in secrecy; whether this is a conservation strategy or a traditional powerplay I do not know. The UK, by comparison, is public domain! Digs, and digging, though is often secret (mostly because it's boring).

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It is both cultural and geographic. As Filter notes, US law gives greater (though not total - there are cave conservation laws) leeway to landowners in the US than it does in the UK (a situation which may get worse if some zealots end up getting their way) but it is also the case that in areas of much lighter population, both of cavers and of people in general, it is rather easier to keep some sites secret. I do remember that vast numbers of folks we saw in My Cave in WV though. A cave that had clearly suffered a lot of wear and tear.

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A few notes on US caving culture.
Most caves aren't entirely "secret" caves here, but cave locations are much more carefully dispensed. There is a great deal of secrecy when it comes to exploration. Certain parts of the country have different reasons for secrecy too. In the western US, there is relatively little private ownership of land, and population is less dense. So caves are easier to hide and there is more motivation to do so, since activity on those lands isn't closely monitored. In the eastern US, many caves are kept secret during the exploration stage to keep other cavers from storming in and stealing leads, and because cavers are often trespassing on private lands in order to explore.