A conservation dilemma
- Thread starter Badlad
- Start date
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
I think it's legitimate to tape off a passage if the likely consequence of not taping it is that most of the pretty stuff is destroyed and the only significant value of the passage is the pretty stuff (i.e. not an important through route). Ideally you want to restrict viewing off as little as needed. That could mean taping a very narrow path (in Upper Flood they've even got tape hanging across a crawl to keep your head down). Or it could just be taping off the whole passage so you can look at it over the tape but not enter. What's the point of being able to see the pretties at the end if all the pretties up to their get trashed in the process?
Taking down the ropes doesn't seem unreasonable; you haven't stopped sufficiently determined people viewing the passage. What I don't like is when things are kept secret from caving in general but those 'in the know' continue to visit (I'm not thinking of this specific case here but elsewhere). All responsible cavers should be equally welcome, whether that is open access or no access.
Taking down the ropes doesn't seem unreasonable; you haven't stopped sufficiently determined people viewing the passage. What I don't like is when things are kept secret from caving in general but those 'in the know' continue to visit (I'm not thinking of this specific case here but elsewhere). All responsible cavers should be equally welcome, whether that is open access or no access.
Unfortunately there will always be a continuum of situations between those two extremes, from landowners who don't want people they don't know in their fields, to cavers who expect that somewhere will get trashed if too many people enter it. Most diggers find stuff for their own satisfaction rather than self glorification, so don't feel the need to advertise everything.
droid said:Badlad wants tp plough on to caverns measureless to man and wants 'permission' to do so.
Oh Droid, you hack
Me and the digging chums are not the sort that feel a need to seek 'permission' to plow on to caverns measureless - which we have done already I am interested in other cavers opinions on conservation and any ideas that might come forth which we'd never thought of. 
JasonC
Well-known member
Badlad, I (like everyone else) have been awestruck following your revelations on F'ing Hopeless - the formations look absolutely beautiful - and delicate. Naturally, I (like everyone else) am dying to see them for myself, when you've done your work - but it's hard to see the cave taking much traffic before the inevitable damage and mud-deposits take a toll. As you say - a dilemma.
I see you've taped some areas, and set up cleaning stations. Have you had any ideas about what more can be done to protect the cave?
I see you've taped some areas, and set up cleaning stations. Have you had any ideas about what more can be done to protect the cave?
Yes, we've a few ideas, but unfortunately some areas will get damaged - indeed have done from the very first footfall. I agree with some of the comments above, such as those from Pete Hall. A lot of the formations are protected by their location and will remain pristine others be with some simple steps like signage and taping so there will be plenty to look at in years to come.
We have to accept that if we want to 'preserve' these places then we should not enter them in the first place - give up caving and digging all together. I don't believe in that, obviously. There is no point in hiding or locking these places away - people want to see them. It is not as easy a trip as it might seem from the photos of all the nice places, so that will help. Better conservation education has made cavers more aware and simple measures help but we have to be realistic. If you want to experience pristine, untouched cave then you need to be first in. That must be partly why we do it.
What do you think?
We have to accept that if we want to 'preserve' these places then we should not enter them in the first place - give up caving and digging all together. I don't believe in that, obviously. There is no point in hiding or locking these places away - people want to see them. It is not as easy a trip as it might seem from the photos of all the nice places, so that will help. Better conservation education has made cavers more aware and simple measures help but we have to be realistic. If you want to experience pristine, untouched cave then you need to be first in. That must be partly why we do it.
What do you think?
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
I see only three 'actual' options for any cave to prevent damage by the 'caving community', based on the significance of damage/ease of damage ratio (e.g. a cave with important scientific features or amazing formations that can be easily damaged gets a high score, a cave without significant features OR where damage is hard/unlikely gets a low score):
1) close the cave (either completely or partially e.g. only open to scientists/4 trips a year/whatever)
2) leader system (obviously legal issues on CROW land)
3) best practice conservation work (taping, education, digging to avoid delicate areas, fixed aids etc)
Note this is only considering damage from people in the 'caving community', not the 'general public' - in some limited cases access restrictions may help restrict damage from the 'general public' but they do nothing to prevent inevitable damage from the caving community, which is probably the more significant cause of damage in UK caves.
Obviously a leader system on CROW land is tricky since the BCA holds a right of access to caves under CROW, at which point to institute a leader system you would have to make an application for restriction of access rights to Natural England, who won't issue the permit because they don't believe there is a right to access under CROW, at which point you could just stick the gate on it, but then you are going against your own BCA policy that such restrictions are illegal without the relevant permits, which you can't obtain...
What I really don't approve of is where a pretty area of a cave is hidden (perhaps by hiding the entrance to the passage under easily-moved rocks or similar) and not publicised, so that it is not found by other cavers, but the area _is_ visited by people 'in the know' (i.e. it is a club secret or whatever). Access should be for all or none.
1) close the cave (either completely or partially e.g. only open to scientists/4 trips a year/whatever)
2) leader system (obviously legal issues on CROW land)
3) best practice conservation work (taping, education, digging to avoid delicate areas, fixed aids etc)
Note this is only considering damage from people in the 'caving community', not the 'general public' - in some limited cases access restrictions may help restrict damage from the 'general public' but they do nothing to prevent inevitable damage from the caving community, which is probably the more significant cause of damage in UK caves.
Obviously a leader system on CROW land is tricky since the BCA holds a right of access to caves under CROW, at which point to institute a leader system you would have to make an application for restriction of access rights to Natural England, who won't issue the permit because they don't believe there is a right to access under CROW, at which point you could just stick the gate on it, but then you are going against your own BCA policy that such restrictions are illegal without the relevant permits, which you can't obtain...
What I really don't approve of is where a pretty area of a cave is hidden (perhaps by hiding the entrance to the passage under easily-moved rocks or similar) and not publicised, so that it is not found by other cavers, but the area _is_ visited by people 'in the know' (i.e. it is a club secret or whatever). Access should be for all or none.
cap n chris
Well-known member
andrewmc said:
Indeed. Therein is an obvious conclusion presuming conservation is genuinely important.
Ian Adams
Active member
Thank you Mikem
I have found his comment(s) on conservation ...
Speleothems are, from a practical realistic human standpoint, first an aesthetic resource. As a distant second they are a scientific resource. ..... There is no authority by which we can be universally judged on these matters.
Ian
I have found his comment(s) on conservation ...
Speleothems are, from a practical realistic human standpoint, first an aesthetic resource. As a distant second they are a scientific resource. ..... There is no authority by which we can be universally judged on these matters.
Ian
