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Access in private or democratic groups.

royfellows

royfellows

Well-known member
I want to thank everyone who has supported the work that we are trying to, but for the benefit of anyone who has misgivings, I yet again repeat my question, quoting myself:

"As has already been stated CAL policy is that access to the mines on its schedule should be as free and easy as possible, and bearing in mind that there are no conservation issues, does anyone feel this this should be done differently?"

So that I cannot be accused of Machiavellian tactics, or coming from somewhere, my thinking is that in the absence of anyone "feeling differently", then I have to assume that we have everyone's full support. True democracy.
Then I echo Brains final comment about why was the thread started.

 
J

Jopo

Active member
Roy. Yes I do believe it could, and should, be done differently and I know others (mainly cavers it is true) who are concerned. If they choose to comment on here it is their prerogative

CAL policy can be whatever the directors say - we the great unwashed have no say in the policy.
No one has explained why CAL is the only way to keep or achieve access, just a load of tosh about liability (craftily avoided by being a shell company).

Why did I ask the question? Because I know that bodies such as the NRW will always gravitate to apparent "professional" bodies than voluntary groups if offered a choice and the NRW has caves on its land as well as mines, Perhaps this is why it is CAL instead of MAL - which is still available - and the somewhat, to me, poor explanation that "we wanted it seen that cavers are in control". That, coupled with the aims stated on the CAL website still gives me cause for concern.


I find part of Roy's statement

royfellows said:
So that I cannot be accused of Machiavellian tactics, or coming from somewhere, my thinking is that in the absence of anyone "feeling differently", then I have to assume that we have everyone's full support. True democracy.
Then I echo Brains final comment about why was the thread started.
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quite revealing, and who are you (or anybody else) think you are to question my right to question you about what is a unique situation in Wales. Posing that question shows just how little understanding you have of "True democracy".

Brains said:
I feel Roy and CAL are doing the best job possible in the circumstances, and certainly a lot better than many other access bodies have managed. As the thing shows no sign of being broken, I dont feel there is a need to offer changes or reccomendations. I look forward to more mines being added to the portfolio.
Well done one and all

I am however puzzled as to the reason this thread was started in the first place
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What mines are now accessible that were not before CAL. I suspect one or two were but talking to some mine enthusiasts find that many on the list never had a problem.

I suppose, Brains, I know who you are referring to when you mention other conservation bodies. I ask you and others to remember that there was almost no problem for the majority of cavers who gained access through them for years and that every one of those bodies can be influenced by active cavers. CAL cannot. So if cavers become disenchanted in future we only have ourselves to blame for sleeping through it.

I ask a question - you choose to answer or not. I find some answers and explanations lacking and unsatisfactory.
So what. That is democracy.

I still, after several hours thinking about it, find it incredible to be questioned about my right to question.

I find this forum seldom changes contributors minds but feel justified that at least the subject has been aired. I don't think I have anything to add, unless my democratic rights are questioned again, unless something entirely new is brought to light.

Jopo
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Brains

Brains

Well-known member
I still, after several hours thinking about it, find it incredible to be questioned about my right to question.
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I am not questioning your right to ask - ask away, only trying to understand why it was asked. Your fuller response has gone a long way to doing that.
 
A

And

New member
Interesting to note that those that set up CAL and its advocates have been the strongest critics of the PDCMG when they play exactly the same role...
 
Ian Adams

Ian Adams

Active member
And said:
Interesting to note that those that set up CAL and its advocates have been the strongest critics of the PDCMG when they play exactly the same role...
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.... Saved to disc.

Do you have insurance indemnifying you against libel?

Ian
 
M

miles

New member
royfellows said:
I want to thank everyone who has supported the work that we are trying to
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I don't want to get drawn into this thread, but I will express my opinion that I don't really care if CAL is a democracy or not. I do however know that the people running CAL and CCC are the very best people that "we the community" could hope for.

CAL and CCC - I thank and salute you  (y)
 
P

Peter Burgess

New member
Oh dear. Silly man uses rude words to intimidate me. Quaking in my boots now. Sorry - talking about libel is silly and needs pointing out.
 
royfellows

royfellows

Well-known member
I have copied this from one of my postings on aditnow in an attempt to examine the logic of some peoples reasoning.

READS:

A funny sort of slant on this is that its OK for a private company to purchase land with mines or caves and become the 'landowner', but not a private company to be an ACB.
CMT is of course landowner and ACB.

Pity the thread on UKC is closed as I could present this as a 'dilemma' to the complainant.

ENDS

Well now the thread is open again, so here it is.

I am off to Nenthead for a week though so will probably miss a lot here, I have a sort of funny bizarre hobby of going underground, and really like to just get on and do it.
 
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