Artificial Caves

[Andy Sparrow]

In the course of my work I introduce many young people to caving.  The question "have you been caving before?" is generally asked but many of the 'yes' responses now refer to artificial caves.  While some of these systems are quite realistic pseudo-caves others are no more than pipes and drains - however, they all seem to be described as caves.  The pipes and drains do not seem to leave a positive impression on the kids who often have not enjoyed this 'caving' experience.  There was some trashy 'iron-man' TV show where the contestants had to do some 'caving' which was in reality just a dismal series of drains.  A cave is a "natural cavity large enough for human entry" - artificial caves do not exist by this definition.  Would it be possible, I wonder, to prosecute anyone promoting an artificial cave as 'caving' under the trade descriptions act?  I think the damage done to the image and concept of caving in the minds of young people would justify this action by BCA.

 

[graham]

Have you been in Lascaux Graham? I'm very impressed; I'd love to have the chance to see that one day. Have been in Lascaux Deux and I thought that it was extremely good but the real thing must be amazing.

I have had that privilege yes. One guide, Linda and myself for just under an hour. Although L2 (Fauscaux I've heard it called) is actually very good, especially from the artistic POV, it is still not the real thing as compromises do have to be made. It is not complete, the floor is nothing like the original, the atmosphere, especially in terms of humidity, is very different and - first thing we noticed about L2 - it doesn't smell right.

ChrisJC

My specific interests are in how caves have been modified to accommodate human activity and as far as the art is concerned how it relates to its surroundings. That means that I do need to see these places in the original. I have also visited both the original and the reproduction Altamiras (on the same day) and could write you an essay on what the one tells you that the other doesn't. In that respect Altamira has done a better job than Lascaux, but then it has twenty years of experience to build on.

Sadly, both these two caves are in a bad way at the moment. I hope the problems can be solved but I am by no means certain.

 

[Cave Mapper]

There are some artificial caves in the Dales. The one just north of Clapham has electric lights, concrete floors and even an expert cave guide - yet more contrived adventure?

 

[cap n chris]

Would it be possible, I wonder, to prosecute anyone promoting an artificial cave as 'caving' under the trade descriptions act?  I think the damage done to the image and concept of caving in the minds of young people would justify this action by BCA.

Andy, the quote I used earlier* is from BCA minutes (2009) who appear to be considering commissioning one as a promotional resource; it seems pretty unlikely that BCA would initiate legal action against itself.




* "Artificial cave: It was felt that this was a good way of getting others involved and that this idea should be pursued"

 

[Pitlamp]

Now then Cave Mapper - the cave you mention near Clapham is anything but artifical. And the visitors who go to see it don't get anything contrived; it's real enough adventure for ordinary people who want to experience a cave but don't want to go "caving". They also get information which is factually correct in there.

Oh, and the person you allude to makes great use of the opportunity to enthuse young people to have a go at real caving. In fact he's quite proud of his record as a recruiting sergeant for the cause. Vast numbers of the "So you want to go caving" leaflets have been distributed from there in the last 18 months and lots of people have gone away with the trycaving.co.uk web address scrawled on paper bags. Most people seem to enjoy the cave anyway.

 

[Cave Mapper]

Artificial caves, dumbed-down real caves, what's the difference? They are probably both good recruiting grounds, and certainly don't do the sport any harm.

I remember taking my young kids to an artificial cave in South Wales a few years ago, we had a great time. They even wanted to go down a real cave afterwards. That soon put them off though

 

[Pitlamp]

"What's the difference" between a real cave and a concrete pipe? Good joke.

Perhaps a better question is "Are there any similarities?".

(Scratches head . . . ) I suppose they're both dark. Struggling to come up with much else though.

 

[Cave Mapper]

"What's the difference" between a real cave and a concrete pipe? Good joke.

Perhaps a better question is "Are there any similarities?".

http://www.peakdistrictcaving.info/photo_19991028_002_jnc.jpg

http://www.dudleycavingclub.org.uk/phreatic_tubes.htm

 

[cap n chris]

"What's the difference" between a real cave and a concrete pipe?

The Drainpipe, Goatchurch Cavern (Grade 5 hardcore gnarly cavers only!)

Concrete Pipe (Grade 1 sissy shandy sippers only)

Clearly they are identical so the answer is "Very little other than one is clearly natural while caving is obviously unnatural".

 

[mikem]

This is obviously the book you need: http://www.military-info.com/BOOK/n27_acs/bk_acs.htm

Mike

 

[Pitlamp]

"Clearly they are identical" CM? Another joke.

You're just trying to wind me up aren't you? 

Going caving now. (Sounds better than "Going concrete piping" doesn't it?)

 

[cap n chris]

I'm planning on going vertical concrete tubing ooop North later today.... never know.... might even pendulum into Pitlamp!

 

[gus horsley]

Our version of artificial caves "back in the day" was exploring culverts etc underneath Halifax and Huddersfield.  We found one that was about 2 miles long, complete with 70ft pitch, low wet crawl and terminal sump, all constructed about 200 years ago. 

 

[whitelackington]

We have chalk mines, they have pitches to gain entry.
hardly need a light ( white chalk walls)
an FX2 is good enough.

 

[ttxela]

The Swiss gardens at Old Warden (Beds) has an artifical gave cum greenhouse with Pulhamite stalactites.

 

[Huge]

If the BCA's proposed "cave" is portable and can be erected at shows/open days, then it may be useful in generating interest. It should be combined with information about what the world of real caving has to offer.

Artificial caves that are fixed seem a bit of an irrelevance, especially if situated in caving areas.

About half a mile down the road from my house there is an artificial cave that is part of the Welsh International Climbing Centre. I haven't been in there myself but a member of my old club (Brynmawr Caving Club) used to be an instructor at the wall. He told me the cave was tight, damp and grotty. I don't know if it's currently being used. When someone else from the club enquired about having a look at the cave, they were told that they would have to be lead by an instructor for insurance reasons!

The cave's main claim to fame is that Steve Round (of Bernie's Cafe) got physically stuck in a squeeze for a couple of hours and had to be chipped out with a cango hammer! Made the Welsh evening news.

 

[Slug]

The Swiss gardens at Old Warden (Beds) has an artificial gave cum greenhouse with Pulhamite stalactites.

and only 20 miles away from there is this http://www.roystoncave.co.uk/index.html Not strictly a real cave, but worth a look if You're in the area none the less.

If the BCA's proposed "cave" is portable and can be erected at shows/open days, then it may be useful in generating interest. It should be combined with information about what the world of real caving has to offer.

The one that I discussed designing and building with someone from the B.C.A. for use at show's/displays would have been self contained, easily transported/erected and have provision for a variety of skill levels, with a internal volume of over 100 cubic metres. and relatively cheap too That was in November of last year, I never heard any more from them.

 

[Graigwen]

Our version of artificial caves "back in the day" was exploring culverts etc underneath Halifax and Huddersfield.  We found one that was about 2 miles long, complete with 70ft pitch, low wet crawl and terminal sump, all constructed about 200 years ago. 

A 70' pitch, I am impressed.

Even Aberystwyth used to have an underground traverse of the town from Penglais Hill to the beach via the surface water drainage scheme (a bit more recent, built in 1970).

.

 

[Rachel]

It's easy for us experienced and enthusiastic cavers to scoff at the idea of artificial caves. We all had that urge to stuff ourselves into muddy wet caves and found a way to do it, but what about the hundreds of thousands of people who have NEVER felt the call of the underground? There are numerous people here in Ingleton who must drive or walk over the top of caves every day, but wouldn't dream of sticking their heads inside to have a look - like all the folk who can see Ingleborough from their window but haven't ever walked up it. Now imagine one of those folk strolling round the annual gala, hotdog in hand, and coming face to face with an artificial cave. It's clean, warm, dry and only a couple of quid, so why not have a go? Artificial caves might never catch on with cavers, but they might just be a first step for people who had never previously thought of themselves as potential cavers.

 

[Alkapton]

How would one dig an artificial cave?

Could a boulder choke ever be described as artificail, even if it is in an artificial cave?

Would you need to use artificial samtex in an atificial cave?

Perhaps you need to put artificial samtex in the correct but unmarked place on the wall to cause sections of wall to disapear temporarily so as to allow access to a secret bar.