BBC 5 Live interview on the BCA's CROW campaign
- Thread starter David Rose
- Start date
Peter Burgess
New member
I really hope that there are no cavers who decided not to vote because they thought their club vote was all they needed to rely on to represent them.
Ouan
Member
jasonbirder said:
+1
The 'antis' don't seem to understand how a vote in a democracy works, by claiming that all the non-voters are 'anti'. By the same reasoning all the 'pros' could claim the votes. This is complete bollocks.
I didn't vote for a reason and so find it very annoying that the 'antis' can claim my non-existent vote as a 'no'.
Another point - the campaign is for clarification of the law, not a change in the law. There is a difference.
Peter Burgess
New member
Something that causes me concern is that a decision made by taking a vote doesn't make the action approved "right" and therefore everyone is obliged to help push it forward. If something is in principle "wrong", then no vote in the world can possibly make it "right". But, of course, the concept of "right" or "wrong" is entirely a subjective one. And one person's "right" is another person's "wrong". Because this is a subjective matter, it means that the individuals who think it "wrong" are fully entitled to explain why, to have their views respected as to why they think something "wrong", and are not obliged to get on board with something they inherently consider a "bad thing". I don't ever expect to persuade someone else that their "right" is "wrong", but I do expect not to be personally attacked simply because I don't agree with a majority. The mature contributors to this matter understand this. The others simply expose themselves as shallow people with little to give them credit. On both sides.
jasonbirder
Member
No...but if you're representing an organisation that has gone through an extensive and expensive decision making process - to come to a conclusion about a course of action its going to take...the honourable thing to do is go along with that decision or get out...
Not sit inside trying to find every weasel way possible to delay, obfuscate and obstruct the process...
If people are personally so anti-CRoW they can't put their personal views to one side and support the organisations membership...then fine, I can respect that...get out...start up your own "anti-CRoW" national caving group...or whatever you need to do...THATS the decent thing to do...
jasonbirder
Member
That's right - ALL members CIM's AND DIM'S got a vote...
The only addition is that each club got a single vote in addition to the members votes...
So a club with 100 members would have had 101 total votes...
The only addition is that each club got a single vote in addition to the members votes...
So a club with 100 members would have had 101 total votes...
Peter Burgess
New member
When I post here I represent nobody's views but my own. I don't know what you think I was getting at above, but it was only a reflection of my personal position, and that of anyone else posting here as individuals. As for organisational representation at BCA level, that's completely different and I have already observed that I think you are wrong with your understanding of the word "representative".
jasonbirder
Member
Peter...for once I'm in complete agreement...
YOU'RE perfectly entitled to your views on CRoW...I may vehemently disagree with them...but I also support your right to state them...
Its only if someone in a position that can & does have influence at a council level or similar is so vocal in their views...or takes actions to undermine the stated wishes of the clubs membership via bureaucratic obfuscation or delay that I would have an issue with it...
YOU'RE perfectly entitled to your views on CRoW...I may vehemently disagree with them...but I also support your right to state them...
Its only if someone in a position that can & does have influence at a council level or similar is so vocal in their views...or takes actions to undermine the stated wishes of the clubs membership via bureaucratic obfuscation or delay that I would have an issue with it...
Note that it wasn't just clubs who had a vote, all the constituent bodies of BCA had one vote as well. In fact DCA specifically asked its members at an open Council meeting: "if DCA is given a vote in the forthcoming referendum on CRoW, should the DCA Secretary make use of that vote, and if so, how should the Secretary vote."
By agreement of all the members present (with one abstention), the Secretary was told to vote in favour of the referendum and did so. So the DCA vote was an extra for 34 clubs and 44 individual members - 21 of these DCA individual members are not BCA members as DIMs and did not therefore have a vote in their own right but could have had a vote as a CIM if they belonged to a BCA member club. So actually even the non-BCA members had a small fraction of a vote.
It appears that 3 regional councils were in favour and 1 against so, if the regions used their votes accordingly, non-affiliated cavers did have some say.
Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Sec.
By agreement of all the members present (with one abstention), the Secretary was told to vote in favour of the referendum and did so. So the DCA vote was an extra for 34 clubs and 44 individual members - 21 of these DCA individual members are not BCA members as DIMs and did not therefore have a vote in their own right but could have had a vote as a CIM if they belonged to a BCA member club. So actually even the non-BCA members had a small fraction of a vote.
It appears that 3 regional councils were in favour and 1 against so, if the regions used their votes accordingly, non-affiliated cavers did have some say.
Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Sec.
badger
Active member
someones right is anothers wrong, is quite true, same as sometimes in life you have to agree to disagree. we can agree that of those who voted that the vote came out in favour, for those who voted against obviously would not like the result, same as those who voted labour are not happy with a tory government.
the vote, its very difficult to say how those who did not vote feel regarding crow, they did not vote, same as the UK vote in the last elections, in most elections turn out I believe is under 50%, how can anyone know then if the BCA vote is the total will of its membership, basically we cant, the BCA can only go on those votes it received. those that did not vote can then not turn round and complain its not their view.
the vote, its very difficult to say how those who did not vote feel regarding crow, they did not vote, same as the UK vote in the last elections, in most elections turn out I believe is under 50%, how can anyone know then if the BCA vote is the total will of its membership, basically we cant, the BCA can only go on those votes it received. those that did not vote can then not turn round and complain its not their view.
I guess all you might say is that the vote is probably likely to be fairly representative of caving opinion generally. Those strongly in favour and those strongly against are most likely to have voted. Those who did not vote either didn't care, couldn't be bothered to vote or hadn't made their minds up yet.
A bit like a general election really and you might wish that voting was compulsory, as it is in some countries, but I'm not sure that would really change the ultimate outcome for or against.
I do want to have my say, both in votes like this and in UK General Elections - I value the right to vote and wouldn't waste it. If I don't vote then I can't complain if my side lost.
A bit like a general election really and you might wish that voting was compulsory, as it is in some countries, but I'm not sure that would really change the ultimate outcome for or against.
I do want to have my say, both in votes like this and in UK General Elections - I value the right to vote and wouldn't waste it. If I don't vote then I can't complain if my side lost.
Or in the case of some CIMs, their Club forgot to let BCA know.
Don't forget that BCA is trying to sort this problem as well by asking for all members' email addresses so that you can update your own address, even if you are a CIM, without relying on your Club Secretary to do it.
Don't forget that BCA is trying to sort this problem as well by asking for all members' email addresses so that you can update your own address, even if you are a CIM, without relying on your Club Secretary to do it.
Cookie
New member
cavermark said:
Which is where BCA Online comes in - you can check BCA has your correct contact details.
If you are not registered, click "Request Login Detail" top left.
Oceanrower
Active member
Which only works if they already have your email address.........
