BCA 2020 Demographics Report

[Speleofish]

Not sure why FionaH asserts that reverse racism doesn't exist - there are numerous definitions in several online dictionaries that are consistent and make sense. However, as a concept, its frequently used to support some fairly indefensible positions.

To say racism against white people doesn't exist seems even less tenable. Many expats in parts of Asia and Africa would contradict her. Probably elsewhere too...

Doesn't make it any more palatable.

 

[JoshW]

Not sure why FionaH asserts that reverse racism doesn't exist - there are numerous definitions in several online dictionaries that are consistent and make sense. However, as a concept, its frequently used to support some fairly indefensible positions.

To say racism against white people doesn't exist seems even less tenable. Many expats in parts of Asia and Africa would contradict her. Probably elsewhere too...

Doesn't make it any more palatable.

I think it's safe to say this part of the conversation was the part that was becoming unpleasant and got the thread locked in the first place. If we could try and keep on topic please.

 

[mikem]

I have put my comments about Rostam's report into previous discussion (along with his later request):
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=26961.50

 

[JoshW]

I have put my comments about Rostam's report into previous discussion (along with his later request):
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=26961.50

just want to pick you up on the following bit

if you consider that under 18s make up 20% of the UK population & are effectively excluded from joining clubs without their parents

This isn't the case. There is nothing stopping clubs allowing young people to join the club without their parents. The BCA website under safeguarding has some guidelines that may help clubs with this.

If parents do not join the club then there are some additional things the club should do, including vetting the adults who would be responsible for the young people, either on club premises or on caving trips.

If any clubs would like further advice on this please feel free to email myself at youth@british-caving.org.uk or Chris Boardman our safeguarding officer at safeguarding@british-caving.org.uk. There is a lot of fear over how difficult it is to allow young people into clubs, usually because of hearsay or stories in the papers about things going wrong, but there are some really simple steps that can be taken to protect not only the young people but the adult volunteers.

I'm hoping over the next few months to have a project put together that will support and encourage young people to be joining clubs, whilst reiterating to clubs how important it is that they encourage young people to join. It's not just a cliche they really are the future.

 

[PeteHall]

if you consider that under 18s make up 20% of the UK population & are effectively excluded from joining clubs without their parents

This isn't the case. There is nothing stopping clubs allowing young people to join the club without their parents.

I've added a little emphasis above, as I suspect that this is more of a practical consideration than one of club rules, though of course I may be mistaken.

For most U18's knowledge of caves/ caving and transport to get to clubs is likely to be severely limited without a parent who caves.

The exception (as far as knowledge of caves/ caving goes) would be the many young people who experience caving with an instructor through school or holiday activities, but how easy it is to move from a 1st positive experience with an instructor, to finding a club and convincing your parents to drive you out to your local caving region and drop you off for a day's caving, I don't know...

I know of at least one person who has taken up caving in order to accompany theirs kids who were keen; fortunately in this case, the parent enjoys it too.

 

[Speleofish]

In reply to JoshW, it wasn't supposed to be either unpleasant or provocative, more an attempt to give balance. However, I take the point (and will stick to it...)

 

[JoshW]

if you consider that under 18s make up 20% of the UK population & are effectively excluded from joining clubs without their parents

This isn't the case. There is nothing stopping clubs allowing young people to join the club without their parents.

I've added a little emphasis above, as I suspect that this is more of a practical consideration than one of club rules, though of course I may be mistaken.

For most U18's knowledge of caves/ caving and transport to get to clubs is likely to be severely limited without a parent who caves.

The exception (as far as knowledge of caves/ caving goes) would be the many young people who experience caving with an instructor through school or holiday activities, but how easy it is to move from a 1st positive experience with an instructor, to finding a club and convincing your parents to drive you out to your local caving region and drop you off for a day's caving, I don't know...

I know of at least one person who has taken up caving in order to accompany theirs kids who were keen; fortunately in this case, the parent enjoys it too.

Totally valid point, and I did actually read it that way, just wanted to (to a small extent) dispel the myth that youngsters can?t join caving clubs.

I?m hoping to be able to come up with plans that will overcome some of the issues you mention, though if you have any ideas my inbox is always open 

 

[mikem]

So I calculate that about 2% of membership are under 20, compared to over 20% of general population, so average age of cavers does align with rest of population.

18% of cavers are over 65, so if you remove the U18s from general population, then they will make up c.25% which is still an impressively close match compared to other outdoor sports, but how many of them are active?

 

[PeasusCrisp]

As far as demographics and diversity goes there is a lot that could be done.  Positive and active publicity would certainly help. Most people I speak to have heard of caving very few have tried it, and apart from those that I have met that actually enjoy the activity there is very little interest.

It took a chance visit to Cheddar and looking for something exciting to do with my daughter that piqued my interest. After a couple of years when she was old enough we went and did the Adventure caving experience there and it got us hooked, a few other hurdles passed and a couple of roadblocks but now we are getting into it properly. She is pretty much the standard urbanised and Youtube/TikTok addicted teen but she loves caving comes with me when we get the chance to go and wants to do more and challenging stuff.

My point is even in the modern age where kids spend more time exploring the world through their screens some still actually want to explore it in reality but their access to it is limited. Apart from Scouts and some PGL trips in primary school there seems literally nothing that introduces kids to anything outdoors unless they have a parent/guardian that can drag them along.

As far as demographic goes unless you live in an area where caving is popular and on your doorstep/have the means of travel, actually know anything about the activity or have someone you know that does then it will not change much.

Publicity is key. I grew up in Sedgley in the West Midlands do not live there now but until two years ago I didn't even know that a club existed let alone had it's headquarters a stones throw from where I lived! I am pretty sure that it is the same for most urban non caving areas where clubs have some sort of link.

 

[JoshW]

Apart from Scouts and some PGL trips in primary school there seems literally nothing that introduces kids to anything outdoors unless they have a parent/guardian that can drag them along.

I'm hoping that plans I've got will change that this year, but it will require support from regional councils, clubs in all of the regions and most importantly willing volunteers at those clubs.

Further news will come once I've actually started to actuate these plans.

 

[mikem]

There are several instructors who work regularly with schools local to caving areas getting kids underground.

 

[JoshW]

There are several instructors who work regularly with schools local to caving areas getting kids underground.

Which is awesome, but what's stopping these youngsters from joining a caving club if they're enjoying it? Eventually requiring instructors will become a financial barrier (it may already be for some), and I'd love to get to the point where clubs have the culture (and set up) where young people can join, and attend their trips.

 

[mrodoc]

Certainly cavers are staying active into later life nowadays - I wonder how much this is affected by improvements in kit, which has been shown to have a positive effect on the retention of e.g. female canoeists / kayakers in their sport?

There is also the possibility that higher percentages of men continue to pursue caving outside the club environment, whereas women are more likely to join a club (this has been noted in other outdoor activities).

(To clarify - mrodoc's committee ratio is male to female & is pretty much the same as overall ratio in that club)

& if there is a consistent proportion of people avoiding the question then it doesn't affect the comparison, the problem is it won't be consistent for quite some time, as people will do it to make a point & then not worry some time subsequently.

Mike, I think, is probably right about kit. I have frequently said a number of developments have come along at right time for me regarding kit, not least decent lighting. Contact lenses aren't caving kit but they have also made a huge difference to my personal comfort. Lighter carrying cases and smaller cameras have also helped. Decent clothing is also a factor of course.

 

[mikem]

Which is awesome, but what's stopping these youngsters from joining a caving club if they're enjoying it? Eventually requiring instructors will become a financial barrier (it may already be for some), and I'd love to get to the point where clubs have the culture (and set up) where young people can join, and attend their trips.

Generally that they still need someone to take responsibility for them (it can also be difficult to get them all together outside school time, as they often have a lot of other stuff going on).

 

[JoshW]

Which is awesome, but what's stopping these youngsters from joining a caving club if they're enjoying it? Eventually requiring instructors will become a financial barrier (it may already be for some), and I'd love to get to the point where clubs have the culture (and set up) where young people can join, and attend their trips.

Generally that they still need someone to take responsibility for them (it can also be difficult to get them all together outside school time, as they often have a lot of other stuff going on).

You'd hope that there would be enough people who would be keen to volunteer a day of a weekend to lead a slightly easier trip every few months or so, to enable young people to feel part of the club.

As an explorer scout leader, more than aware of the problem of 'other stuff', they always seem to be having more fun than me with house parties etc to be going to, whilst I sit on my own watching netflix..