Bottlebank said:... Just 1400 out of over 6000 cavers, less than 25%, of BCA members have voted for CRoW....
... based on the wishes of less than one in four members.
... in fact over 75% in one form or another don't support it, or don't support it enough to tick a box.
Stuart Anderson said:Tony
I'd disagree, but I'll assume that you know I would. What worries me is that BCA follow a similar mindset to yours - that they only have 25% of member support. They don't, they have nearly two thirds of the vote cast. Half measures won't do.
Badlad said:Mr Bottlebank. I did not call anyone a turkey. Apologies to anyone who voted 'no' who took my comment that way. I was trying to express my sadness at the number of people who voted against a campaign for a legal right of access to caves. In my opinion a 'no' vote is something that is detrimental to the health of the future of caving. So I tried to use a seasonal English idiom to express that.
FYI from wikipedia;
"Turkeys voting for Christmas is an English idiom used as a metaphor or simile (in the construct "like turkeys voting for Christmas") in reference to a suicidal ("death-wish"[1]) political act, especially a vote. In the United Kingdom, turkeys are customarily eaten on Christmas Day dating back to 1573 when they became part of the English Christmas dinner.[2]
The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations writes that a commentator in the Independent Magazine traced the origin of the phrase to British Liberal Party politician David Penhaligon,[1] who is quoted as saying: "Us voting for the Pact is like a turkey voting for Christmas" in reference to the Lib-Lab Pact which he opposed.[3]
The phrase was soon borrowed by other politicians and public figures.[1] In particular, British MP Teresa Gorman, who opposed the Maastricht Treaty, stated; "If the House of Commons voted for Maastricht it would be like 651 turkeys voting for Christmas."[4] When confronted over time spent on luxury by United Kingdom Independence Party MEPs, Nigel Farage responded by saying that "we are the turkeys that would vote for Christmas".[5]"
Stuart Anderson said:Tony, we could conclude that only one in seven cavers think it a bad idea...
cavermark said:Number of eligible voters: 6,085
Total number of votes cast: 2,270
Turnout: 37.3%
Out of interest - do we have any estimate of how many active British cavers are not BCA members?
tony from suffolk said:Absolutely no point arguing with the result either way.
Aubrey ....its nowt about a change to any constitution!! Ha ha ..... However its not April the first .... its Christmas time... good attempt to derail a democratic process..... And you've posted it in the wrong section, we've got a joke section on the forum, you may have got a few more laughs there, ha ha good one mate..... 0Aubrey said:The 62% vote in favor of BCA pursuing CRoW access to caves is nowhere near the75% required to change the cconstitution. It therefore seems likely that any vote to change the constitution will fail.
The BCA executive now have the problem of trying to satisfy the members who voted yes whilst adhering to their own constitution.
Can of worms?
richardg said:Aubrey ....its nowt about a change to any constitution!! Ha ha ..... However its not April the first .... its Christmas time... good attempt to derail a democratic process..... And you've posted it in the wrong section, we've got a joke section on the forum, you may have got a few more laughs there, ha ha good one mate..... 0Aubrey said:The 62% vote in favor of BCA pursuing CRoW access to caves is nowhere near the75% required to change the cconstitution. It therefore seems likely that any vote to change the constitution will fail.
The BCA executive now have the problem of trying to satisfy the members who voted yes whilst adhering to their own constitution.
Can of worms?
Bottlebank said:richardg said:Aubrey ....its nowt about a change to any constitution!! Ha ha ..... However its not April the first .... its Christmas time... good attempt to derail a democratic process..... And you've posted it in the wrong section, we've got a joke section on the forum, you may have got a few more laughs there, ha ha good one mate..... 0Aubrey said:The 62% vote in favor of BCA pursuing CRoW access to caves is nowhere near the75% required to change the cconstitution. It therefore seems likely that any vote to change the constitution will fail.
The BCA executive now have the problem of trying to satisfy the members who voted yes whilst adhering to their own constitution.
Can of worms?
Aubrey is more or less right - although it's a bit more complicated than that. There are actually three 70% votes needed before BCA can campaign for CRoW, without breaching the constitution.
If you're being serious that's a good example of why the BCA should have got the facts out in advance of the poll!
It's a very wormy can and this is just the start of what could be a very long process, because even if they get through that there's still the little matter of persuading the powers that be to change their minds. Best bet is they'll listen sympathetically, and do nothing.
If CRoW falls on the constitutional change vote no doubt we'll see a campaign from Badlad to lower the bar on constitutional change to 50% next