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BCA finances

ChrisB

Well-known member
Recently there was long thread about the BCA. I can now post possible answers to some of the questions, such as "Why is the BCA still raising membership prices when there is a significant amount still left in its coffers?"

In March, I volunteered to take on the vacant BCA Treasurer role, and was co-opted into it. That was my first involvement in BCA. I've spent much of the two months since then understanding the finances. In short, and contrary to what I previously thought, the BCA doesn't have any spare money. It did have, but now it only has what it believes it needs to cover emergencies. If there was a significant claim on the public liability insurance, the renewal premium could double. BCA therefore needs enough in reserve to pay that and ensure cover while it works out a longer term solution. There are also various other disasters, such a cyber attack or being denied banking services, that mean BCA would need a reserve to continue providing a service to cavers. BCA is likely to make a loss of £25-£30k this year, and by December reserves will be close to the minimum level set by previous Council meetings.

The previous thread discussed whether insurance and other BCA membership benefits are necessary – I don't want to revisit that topic here, but on the other hand I'm very happy to discuss how BCA could do things better. If you think the BCA should do something different, stand for one of the vacant seats on Council, or talk to your current region, club or member representatives.

The BCA did accumulate significant funds, and in 2015 it cut the membership fees as a result. Shortly after that, the membership voted to pursue the application of CRoW to access to caves, which resulted in £80k in legal costs. That, plus COVID and inflation, meant that reserves have been used up. Costs have caught up and membership fees are not adequate to fund everything the BCA does. I'm recommending to Council that fees are increased by the minimum possible, that the level of reserves is reviewed and that budgets are carefully scrutinised.

My recommendations are just that, they are not BCA policy, which is up to Council to decide. Council will be meeting on 14 May. The Agenda, and my Treasurer's Report, are on the BCA website.

Chris Bolton
 

AKuhlmann

Member
It's great to see such a thorough report published for everyone to easily access. I'll look forward to similarly high quality reports in the future 😃
Out of curiosity why is the Club membership fee proposed to rise proportionately so much more than the other fees?
 

darren

Member
I'm quite concerned that BCA feels it has to prepare to continue providing a service to cavers should it be denied banking services!!

What is the committee doing that makes this a possibility and how will it manage without banking facilities?
 

darren

Member
Depending on the size of an insurance claim premiums might well double, or treble or possibly increase tenfold.

What is the logic for specifically including premiums doubling in future risks.

Without numbers statements about financial situations are difficult to judge. So I won't comment on BCAs financial position and proposed subs increase. I just find the list of potential risks odd.
 

ChrisB

Well-known member
why is the Club membership fee proposed to rise proportionately so much more than the other fees
A variety of reasons, none of which are so important that it would cause a problem if Council wanted to make the rises more consistent. One reason was to make them easily divisible by four, to simplify admin for joining part way through a year, although I discovered after I'd written the report that this only applies to individuals, not clubs. Another is that my first draft had higher rises for the individual members, but on further scrutiny of the reasons for rising costs I concluded that they could be reduced. I also thought that the club fees could more easily cope with a rise, although, on the other hand, they don't constitute a large part of the total income.
 

JoshW

Well-known member
It's great to see such a thorough report published for everyone to easily access. I'll look forward to similarly high quality reports in the future 😃
Out of curiosity why is the Club membership fee proposed to rise proportionately so much more than the other fees?
I’d assume because it’s considered to be proportionally waaaay lower than it should be.

25 quid to join as a club is a pittance as is the new proposed amount
 

ChrisB

Well-known member
I'm quite concerned that BCA feels it has to prepare to continue providing a service to cavers should it be denied banking services!!
Would you prefer that it didn't plan for unexpected events? Loss of banking services was just an example, from me not the BCA, of the kind of thing that happens to organisations and plunges them into crisis.
 

Fjell

Well-known member
I'm quite concerned that BCA feels it has to prepare to continue providing a service to cavers should it be denied banking services!!

What is the committee doing that makes this a possibility and how will it manage without banking facilities?
Hundreds of thousands of accounts have been frozen/closed belonging to companies and organisations, usually with no explanation. That have trapped peoples money for many months without the slightest concern - they don't give a damn. It's got to the point that banks are going to have to be threatened with losing their banking licences in the UK. You can already forget having a UK bank account if you live or work abroad, something that is not a problem in any other country I have worked in. The UK is slowly but surely going out of business. I keep most of my money with a bank abroad who don't behave in such weird ways.
 
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marsrat

Member
Hundreds of thousands of accounts have been frozen/closed belonging to companies and organisations, usually with no explanation. That have trapped peoples money for many months without the slightest concern - they don't give a damn. It's got to the point that banks are going to have to be threatened with losing their banking licences in the UK. You can already forget having a UK bank account if you live or work abroad, something that is not a problem in any other country I have worked in. The UK is slowly but surely going out of business. I keep most of my money with a bank abroad who don't behave in such weird ways.
Need to be investing in wine, and have members provide 2 bottles of roja to help sustain the BCA balance per annum
😛 The banks can't take that away from us.
 

ChrisB

Well-known member
What is the logic for specifically including premiums doubling in future risks.
It's been a BCA policy, since the BCA was founded, to hold an Insurance Reserve of about that amount. I wasn't involved in the decision, although I suspect it would have been on the advice of the broker, but whatever number you pick could be questioned. The main thing is to have something in reserve, but not so much that it wastes away with inflation.
 

darren

Member
Would you prefer that it didn't plan for unexpected events? Loss of banking services was just an example, from me not the BCA, of the kind of thing that happens to organisations and plunges them into
Planning for unexpected events is always good. I'm just wondering how you are going to mitigate against this. You bought it up after all.
It's been a BCA policy, since the BCA was founded, to hold an Insurance Reserve of about that amount. I wasn't involved in the decision, although I suspect it would have been on the advice of the broker, but whatever number you pick could be questioned.
Any number picked could indeed be questioned, as this number was. You have provided a very reasonable explanation.

Surely it is not unreasonable to ask where the assumptions in your statement come from?
 

ChrisB

Well-known member
Surely it is not unreasonable to ask where the assumptions in your statement come from?
It's not unreasonable to ask, and I was happy to answer.

For anyone who hasn't read it, there is more background on my recommendations, and some numbers, in my report to Council, linked in the first post.
 
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ChrisB

Well-known member
I'm just wondering how you are going to mitigate against this. You bought it up after all.
I gave two examples of the kind of events, among many, that justify the need to hold a reserve. I don't yet have a plan for any other mitigation, I've only been in the role for 2 months. In my report, I've proposed carrying out a risk analysis, which would identify which risks are considered significant and how they might be mitigated - the only point I'm making here, in the context of finance, is that a reserve of funds is a prudent part of the mitigation of unknown threats.
 

darren

Member
I gave two examples of the kind of events, among many, that justify the need to hold a reserve. I don't yet have a plan for any other mitigation, I've only been in the role for 2 months. In my report, I've proposed carrying out a risk analysis, which would identify which risks are considered significant and how they might be mitigated - the only point I'm making here, in the context of finance, is that a reserve of funds is a prudent part of the mitigation of unknown threats.
Thanks for the clarification, risk analysis always useful.
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
It's is really pleasing to see someone from BCA prepared to engage with cavers on a public forum. I appreciate that has it risks as folk are often quick to criticise, but also cavers do generally applaud good work. Look back at the CNCC of old. They received substantial criticism for the way they conducted themselves, including from me. However, they turned themselves around and started to properly represent cavers in the north and provide the services and freedoms cavers wanted. Most of all they kept cavers informed of what was being done in their name. A good PR team was essential in achieving this. CNCC do an excellent job and are rightly praised for that.

Some years ago BCA squandered a great opportunity to turn their own corner and have been in the doldrums ever since (IMO). I really hope your more open attitude and efforts to communicate are the green shoots of things to come. Well done ChrisB.
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
Moderator comment: Five posts moved to new thread on 'Outdoors for All' Please keep this thread on topic - BCA Finances.

Thank you
 
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