BCA pros and cons

[Pitlamp]

Where I cave, this isn't the case. It might be the case in other areas in the UK. If that's correct, perhaps regionally administered insurance might work.

I think there's at least one item on your own club's meets list this year which does require membership of the BCA insurance scheme, as the owner wouldn't have agreed to the visit if not covered for public liability.

Regional insurance schemes would almost certainly not benefit from the economy of scale which our main BCA policy enjoys. You'd end up paying a lot more, even if it could be arranged in the first place.

Could I also just mention (regarding points made by other folk) if your club is part of the BCA scheme (and thus you have to be to be a member) it's the result of your club having made the decision to join. There is nothing to stop a club from existing without joining the BCA scheme but most realise the wisdom of being insured. The cost per person is laughably cheap; we're extremely lucky to have the option at all.

 

[MarkS]

This feels like oversimplification to me. Why shouldn't people be able to be in a club without paying for insurance they don't want?

I guess what I was getting at is that no individual is forced to join any club. You could equally ask why you can't be in a club without paying for upkeep of a hut that you don't want/use, or upkeep of club gear that you don't want/use, or upkeep of a library that you don't want/use. Clubs choose what their membership does or does not include, and every individual then makes a choice as to whether to pay to join.

I can understand the issue is more significant if it means that access to sites is hard, but then I think that is probably a question for regional councils to deal with, i.e. whether it is truly necessary to be insured to have access. And that will presumably vary between sites.

In terms of the (in my view very separate) question of pros and cons of the BCA existing, it was something I pondered quite a bit in council meetings when I was E&T rep. I think my conclusion was that a whole bunch of stuff it did wasn't hugely significant, but there were examples that were very beneficial to cavers/caving nationally (outside the insurance debate). Having some level of nationally consistency in anchoring good practice and the support that the Y&D group could give to student clubs (that I don't think would have anywhere near the same clout as a regional council) immediately spring to mind. What struck me as also useful was the existence of the body as and when issues arise that undoubtedly affect caving nationally, e.g. access land and implications of radon.

 

[hannahb]

I think there's at least one item on your own club's meets list this year which does require membership of the BCA insurance scheme, as the owner wouldn't have agreed to the visit if not covered for public liability.

Regional insurance schemes would almost certainly not benefit from the economy of scale which our main BCA policy enjoys. You'd end up paying a lot more, even if it could be arranged in the first place.

Could I also just mention (regarding points made by other folk) if your club is part of the BCA scheme (and thus you have to be to be a member) it's the result of your club having made the decision to join. There is nothing to stop a club from existing without joining the BCA scheme but most realise the wisdom of being insured. The cost per person is laughably cheap; we're extremely lucky to have the option at all.

Yes, there are a few trips which require it, but in general it's not needed

 

[JoshW]

Oh my Buddha, I spend one day actually caving and I miss all of this.

BCA Insurance manager response incoming (once I’ve showered and maybe snacked some grub)

 

[mikem]

Yes, there are a few trips which require it, but in general it's not needed

A few trips where you have to prove it, a lot of access was negotiated before CRoW on the understanding that the landowner was covered.

 

[marsrat]

A few trips where you have to prove it, a lot of access was negotiated before CRoW on the understanding that the landowner was covered.

CRoW would solve this entire thread (and problems associated with the BCA) tbh.

 

[hannahb]

A few trips where you have to prove it, a lot of access was negotiated before CRoW on the understanding that the landowner was covered.

And now that we have CRoW...

 

[mikem]

It indemnifies whilst on the surface, but is viewed by government not to cover underground.

Apart from the Dales (& Scotland obvs), the majority of caves aren't on access land.

 

[Pitlamp]

And now that we have CRoW...

But not universally, unfortunately.

I agree it would be great if we could just go where we want without a care in the world.

 

[Ian Ball]

I find it disappointing that 3 pages of discussion on what does BCA try to achieve on behalf of members, is mostly about insurance.

I hope Josh will address that imbalance.

 

[mikem]

You have to remember that majority of cavers don't engage with ukcaving

 

[Winnat's Caver]

It always quite hard to put into a list the benefits of the BCA, but it should be easy.

I liked the plastic cards they give out. Useful for cutting cheese / scraping ice off wind screens. Worth every penny

 

[Babyhagrid]

As someone without access to a club library easily. The BCL is one of the major pros to my BCA membership. I get online copies of some journals and scans of pages of journals and magazines emailed to me on request every Wednesday. A pretty good deal especially if you're interested in caving history or are researching digs and projects.

 

[Stu]

Fortunately we aren't forced to join the BMC, so as a concept - it probably holds up better with regards to safeguarding the individual.

Tongue out of cheek for a moment... It's a valid point but not 100% true, if you want to compete at comps you need to be a member (if memory serves), and you need to join (just for the one year mind) if you want any of the MLT courses, but yes, it's a very different concept.

 

[hannahb]

I admit I'm not going to trawl through the minutes, so I am relying on volunteer good will and time to share some details about what gets done, and fair enough if that's not forthcoming - it's not their job to educate me.

I keep wondering about other outdoor stuff that I like to do, like climbing, swimming, walking and so on. I don't need insurance for those but perhaps I would if I was in a club 🤔

I also generally don't need to worry about access. I can just go, thanks to national bodies such as BCA, or CRoW, or tolerance, or probably lots of things I'm not aware of. It would be so good if that was true for all UK caving.

 

[cap n chris]

IIRC,.and I will instantly step back if I am wrong (and I probably am), is it not the case that insurance from the BCA is a benefit of membership, and is not sold (and therefore isn't something you can opt out of, because you get it if you join and that's that) because if the BCA sold insurance it would be subject to a host of regulatory impositions, and the hoop jumping and administrative burden plus associated costs would make the provision of insurance unattainable. Therefore if a club and its officers wish to be covered then all their members must be BCA subscribers because otherwise the arrangement evaporates into a puff of Machiavellianism.

 

[hannahb]

Yes that's how I understand it Chris.

 

[mikem]

Pretty much all other outdoor/ sports clubs include insurance in their membership fees, usually through some form of affiliation to their NGB.

I believe a major factor in NCA originally being set up was that the sports council would only give out grants to national bodies & for a time they were fairly generous to cavers.

 

[Pitlamp]

To try to drag this back in the direction of the original question, apart from insurance, one (of many) good things the BCA does for us is maintain the best caving library in the country, with phenomenally helpful people running it. The BCA library actively helps clubs by giving them spare journals etc, to complete clubs' collections.

It's worth being a member for this alone - yet the librarian is extremely helpful, whether you're a BCA member or not. What's not to like . . . ?

 

[Pitlamp]

Another thing is BCA updating its advice on how to avoid catching Leptospirosis (a common infection in British and overseas caving) - and what to do about it if you do catch it. I had cause to be extremely grateful for this particular BCA service when I became very ill in 2014.

Blimey, you don't have to think very hard to start coming up with all sorts of examples of how BCA continues to serve cavers very well - mostly as a result of heroic volunteers.