Carabiners - Uses & Preferences...

[JAshley73]

It's been a while since I've seen an argument on carabiners, so I figured I'd stir the pot a bit... Actually, I'm putting together a list of gear to get for my young daughter's introduction to SRT... And possibly fiddling with my kit as well, sharing between us as we build out her kit, etc...

Thoughts, favorites, likes for types of carabiners in your SRT kit...?

Autolockers - I keep getting feedback from cavers that Autolockers are frowned upon in caving, for their vulnerability to being jammed with mud. I can certainly understand that, especially for the central D-ring, and others that are left in place whilst crawling, etc... That said, I prefer them (in a general sense) to screw-locks, as they don't, well you know, come unscrewed...

Screw-Gates - These are my least favorite, but I understand "why" people like them, a little bit at least. I'm not much of Petzl lover, but hats off to them for the red anodized band, showing they're unscrewed.

Twin-Gates - by Grivel. I really like the idea of these, and really like them in general. Seems very, very tough to defeat, yet convenient to use. Seems like they're mostly immune from clogging with mud. Can't really think of a reason to NOT use them, other than they're tough to find in-stock, and are slightly pricey.





Central D-Ring - Will probably keep with screw-locks here. I'd rather not futz with a slow-close mallion, or worry about an auto-locker jamming from mud...


Long Cow's Tail & Main Climbing Ascender... - We've been using a screw-lock on this one, to safeguard losing the main climbing ascender & foot-loops. We've been adding a 2nd snap-gate on this as well, for convenient clipping onto the gear loop. A bit like a belt & braces, but it seems to work OK. The screw-locks do need to be looked after, as they do work loose a little bit. Any forseen issue to using an auto-locker here? If indeed it gets jammed with mud, it won't be much of a hinderance, especially with us using a snap-gate for clipping onto the gear loop...


Short Cow's Tail - We don't use them much, but probably snap-gates here. I've read lots on why we should use screw-locks or twin-gates. I could sub these in easily enough.


Descending Device -to- D-Ring - I have a mild preference for autolockers here, probably ovals. Any substantial reason to avoid them? In our practicing, we've used screw-locks and they're coming unscrewed slightly 50% of the time. I also expect that we'll be removing our descenders & stowing in our packs, before crawling on top of them (ouch!) through muddy bits...

Rigging - I would imagine autolockers to be the best choice here, especially when they'll be kept relatively clean - IE, not being rubbed in mud/sand. Perhaps stainless autolockers would be the supreme choice for clipping into hangers, but yikes they're pricey, and the choices seem few.




I think that covers it - please point out what I've missed, or messed up...

 

[Badlad]

My preferences, for me are.....

Main attachment is the Petzl Omni Triact triple lock. Compared to the Maillons of yesteryear they are brilliant and I am no big petzl supporter these days.

Descender connector. I always use a steel screwgate. Not sure why. Steel wears better. I take the descender off a lot and clip to side gear loop for ascent and movement through caves so it is easier for that. I have used an alloy screwgate when I want to be lightweight particularly on big foreign trips.

Cowstails - snaplinks for me. I'm happy in that skin but appreciate if others want the security of screws or locks.

Rigging. Cost can come into this as often a lot of fixings needed. I still use 7mm maillons a lot but also have a lesser number of small alloy screwgates.

The problem I find with twist locks, triple locks, auto locks etc isn't just the incursion of mud. It is also the fiddlyness of them especially with cold hands. Sometimes you just want something that is easy to open and quick to clip in.

Choice of gear for anything will depend on a lot of factors; ability, experience, awareness, training, peers, etc etc. Good luck

 

[AlanClark]

My current configuration is:
Central connection - D Maillon on my harness, if I'm carrying a tackle bag up or down a pitch I hang it from the bottom of the maillon which is not something you're meant to do with the autolockers. I do however have an autolocking D on my belt and I really like it for its ease of use. Never had any mud issues.
Descender connection is a Petzl AM'D tri-ac, I have used a screw gate in the past but found ropes rubbing against it could and did unscrew it, also going through constricted pitch heads could catch the screw gate and spin it open.
Hand ascender connection is now another triac, it was an 8mm maillot but I was brought to the darkside after some rescue training and using the ascender away from my harness. Considered a screwgate but it's another link to be overlooked or unintentionally opened so went with the auto locker.
Cows tails, guess what? More lockers, if I'm working at a pitch head and turning my back on my safety connection then I want to know it's incredibly unlikely to come open and give me a quick trip to the bottom of the pitch. On my spare set of cows tails it's screwgates and on my other it's autolocks but I'm not against going completely screwgates, I just want the option to be 'secure'.
Rigging, mix of screwgates and 7 & 8mm maillons, most of the time its screwgates, I've a dozen or so DMM alloy carabiners, a couple of HMS and a handful of steel ovals then a big chain of maillons for longer multi pitch caves.
Hauling kit has almost entirely DMM ovals.

None of this is a set in stone forever, just how I've currently got things.

 

[cap n chris]

Tis entirely your choice JAshersan; being opinionated on this kind of topic means I absolutely cannot resist, but my opinion is only based on a couple of caving trips as I'm a relative newcomer but here goes:

Safety connectors (aka cowstails - "What are cowstails?" is a question I'm sick of hearing so that's why they're called safety connectors and forevermore will be) are Double-gate Grivels or Vertigo wire lock gates, depending on mood/application, central harness connector is a screw gate Omni (on my fourth as I prefer them to the triact/autolockers); descender-to-Omni is an oval alloy but I have an HMS steel braking carabiner (Petzl Vulcan) as it can double as a descender in extremis; everything else is either alloy oval or alloy deltas. Maillons for rigging still win (in safety terms) on rebelays but alloy deltas/ovals are the preferred quicker default (albeit significantly more expensive but waay quicker to deploy than spanner-tightening grand ouverte maillons). Snapgates are the Angel of Death's favourite knick-knack, so boo-hiss to them.

 

[JoshW]

Central D ring - the cordes courant triple action thing

Safety link to me - CT lime screwgate (so can easily detach from myself if needed)

Safety link and footloop to jammer - CT lime screwgate (can use it to clip in as a bonus foothold - as opposed to a maillon)

Cowstails - vertigo wire locks - just proper sexy

Descender attachment - alloy oval screwlock

Braking carabiner - steel djinn snapgate

Rigging - long live the 7mm steel maillon

 

[Custards]

 

[Babyhagrid]

Screwgate Omni for a D ring

Various screwgates for everything else except my short cowstail which is a snapgate.
I use a petzl AMD for my stop which I find nicer than an oval.

I also have a 6mm maillon on one of the harness D ring loops for clipping bags to.

As Josh says
7mm maillons for rigging!

 

[wellyjen]

Still using a steel D maillon for the harness. I have several unused in the cupboard, so probably enough to see me to caving retirement. Not averse to the various locking krab style ones. Every one I know who has switched has not gone back. I've never had problems with D maillons distorting beyond the ability of even cold fingers alone to open/close, so not felt the urge.
Maillon to descender is with a Petzl AMD triact. Fed up with seeing the screw lock come loose on this vital connection. Not had any problems with mud gumming it up and I cave most often in Derbyshire these days!
Cowstails is a compromise. Long one is a screw gate, short is a snappy. The screw gate is done up when I'm rigging at a long stretch out over the void on the long, or if I'm hanging around in one place for a while, perhaps waiting for someone. Makes me a little happier!
Top jammer to footloop and safety link, or long cowstail is currently a screw gate, but will soon change to another triact. Again, fed up with seeing the screw lock coming undone.
Rigging. A mix of screw gates and 7mm maillons. The screw gates are ideal for that long reach to a Y hang arm. Easy and quick for rigging and derigging, without having to do fiddle with a maillon with finger tips at full stretch. There are occasional resin anchors with very small loops that will only take a maillon, so it is useful to have a few in the bag. Particularly for some early installations of ecohangers, where the loop was partially buried in resin and rock. More recent placements don't seem to have this problem.

 

[paul]

View attachment 19126

Of course you can simply ignore them. Such discussions are what a Forum like this is for, and some people probably find them useful.

 

[Samouse1]

D-Ring: Petzl Omni Triact. I quite often like to take my harness off for long bits of horizontal/through squeezes, and the ease of taking it off and on is a big plus. Keeping it clean has been relatively easy, swilling in water seems to do the trick, even after an incredibly squalid crawl recently.

Descender connector: Kwiklock (twist) DMM perfecto. Taking it on and off is easy, so I can move it to the side of my harness.

Cowstails: both are on Twistlocks, one petzl one DMM, mostly for a colour difference to tell them apart easily. Worth noting I go alpine style, so attach my hand ascender to my long cowstail to prussik.

Rigging: DMM Aeros (RIP) they’re just a good crab for rigging, and I have many of them, so they’re my go to.

As you can probably tell, I’ve been converted to twist for most things, because they’re quick and easy to use, but are very secure. I’ve not had a problem with keeping autolockers clean so far, had to spend five minutes swilling it all in a stream after a recent long grovely crawl, but it all worked perfectly!

 

[AKuhlmann]

I’m a big fan of triple action carabiners - owning a variety of dmm and petzl crabs - for my hand jammer and descender.

I don’t like screwgates too much having had battles with things staying screwed onto places I don’t want them. For cowstails if I only caved on personal trips I’d stick with snapgates (happy with the associated risks) but when leading people I currently have a screwgate on my long but I’ll be replacing it with a triple action sometime in the future.

The Grivel double gates are quite cool but to me they seem heavier and fiddlier than alternatives, especially the kind with a wiregate and a snapgate rather than two wedge shaped snap gates. They would be more grit resistant than other carabiners BUT it’s really not hard to clean your metal work once every 3 months with a toothbrush and re-lube things (makes for a pleasant spring activity in the garden in the sun with a coffee) to stop screwgates and triple actions jamming up. It also means you inspect the rest of your kit at the same time which is good.

One thing I would say though is to avoid twistlocks (those that only require two actions to open them). I have had ropes clip themselves into those carabiners, causing me some problems. Similarly I’ve had them roll open and stay open because they were dragged along a rock and pushed by the rock - more often when climbing but still.

Carabiner shape wise: for any locking one I try and have an oval because they can be nicely used elsewhere in an emergency for other things, but the AM’d is a very nice shape for a descender and I may switch to it and put the plastic anti- crossload clip on it too.

Rigging wise: the cheapest screw locking certified D shape available, unless weight and size is a concern and then I’ll put up with maillons

 

[JAshley73]

I'm surprised that so many of you all use & enjoy auto-lockers. Maybe I should look for *mostly* auto-lockers in my kit, and perhaps Grivel twin-gates for the cows-tails. I imagine it would be hard to go wrong with that setup.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

An oddity of caving carabiner discussions is that snaplink always seems to *assume* solid gates

Personally I find camp nano 22 (wire gate) to be big enough to be useable and fine wearing gloves - can't say the same for all small carabiners. And at only 22g compared to Petzl djinn at 45g, literally less than half the weight.

 

[topcat]

I had a D triact come undone and disengaged from my caving harness, leaving me dangling on one leg loop.
I wasn't caving, but preparing to chainsaw up a tree.

Not for me. Ever again.

 

[Babyhagrid]

An oddity of caving carabiner discussions is that snaplink always seems to *assume* solid gates

Personally I find camp nano 22 (wire gate) to be big enough to be useable and fine wearing gloves - can't say the same for all small carabiners. And at only 22g compared to Petzl djinn at 45g, literally less than half the weight.

I think quite a few cavers don't like wiregates because the nose of the crab gets caught in just about everything whilst trying to do srt

 

[JoshW]

I had a D triact come undone and disengaged from my caving harness, leaving me dangling on one leg loop.
I wasn't caving, but preparing to chainsaw up a tree.

Not for me. Ever again.

What kind of manoeuvring where you doing to get that to happen? Accidentally managing to slide, twist and flick as well as undo from a harness loop is some feat 😅

 

[JoshW]

And at only 22g compared to Petzl djinn at 45g, literally less than half the weight.

I probably carry around 23g of mud and water soaked into oversuit for every biner I have to carry. Weight rarely enters my thoughts when selecting kit.

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

I had a D triact come undone and disengaged from my caving harness, leaving me dangling on one leg loop.
I wasn't caving, but preparing to chainsaw up a tree.

Not for me. Ever again.

Before I knew better I used an alloy D maillon which never gave any trouble for at least 15 years until I found myself dangling on one leg loop at a rebelay near the top of Diccan 1st pitch.
After years of use the threads had worn to the extent that it opened by sliding.
I bought a D triact and thought it a cheap lesson learned.

 

[rm128]

I had a D triact come undone and disengaged from my caving harness, leaving me dangling on one leg loop.
I wasn't caving, but preparing to chainsaw up a tree.

Not for me. Ever again.

I moved to an Omni Triact from a D maillon relatively recently. It certainly makes dekitting much easier after evening trips in winter. However, I have a suspicion that it's easy to put the Triact on with at least one of the actions not fully engaged as it gets jammed against the oversuit and all the other bits of attached kit. I always make a point of double checking.

 

[pwhole]

I coincidentally just stripped and serviced my setup, so it's shown below. But basically two Petzl Lockers on the short and long cowstails - 13 years old and still good - a snapgate on the short loop, which I replace regularly as that does get worn, as I use it to hang on quite a lot. Screwlock oval on the descender, a Tri-act Oval on my hand ascender/footloop, and a Tri-act Omni on the harness, and a small stainless maillon for the hand ascender lanyard. The lengths shown are useful to me as I essentially have four cowstails, all progressively longer by the same proportion - works for me anyway. I find the descender screwlock only comes undone when I'm not abseiling as I always have it pointed downwards when I'm using it, but I am a bit fed up of this so will be upgrading to a Tri-act Am'D soon - I use on on my Rig for work with the plastic retainer clip and it's a good shape. I also haven't had any problems with mud in the twistlocks - so far.