Cave Rescue Procedures (continued)

[Edwardov]

Moderator comment: posts continuing from https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?threads/cave-rescue-procedures.31562/

Thanks for clarifying @thehungrytroglobite. We have, indeed, all made mistakes. Hopefully lessons have been learned.

With regard to the emergency service response, perhaps we need to bear in mind that this was a group of (presumably) adults 5 minutes overdue in an environment were adults get lost all the time. Are we really expecting the emergency services to give this top priority? Of course I would expect things to be different if an actual serious incident had been confirmed. Just my view. I'm really not having a go at any individuals.

All depends if they factor ample “problem-solving time” into their call-out. If they do, then once the call-out passes you know there is something wrong. Whereas the other alternative would make sense to wait and see for a bit. All depends what was factored into the call-out time you see and it might be rare to know this, so prepare for the worst and hope for the best is the way to go.

 

[mikem]

Of course Cumbria police must get very few cave call outs, whilst North Yorks deal with the majority.

Did the original call ask for police or did they immediately request cave rescue? As latter would more likely cause a delay, as at that point they would be talking to a remote operator

According to FB post, original call went to Northumbria police, so less surprising that delay happened!

 

[Babyhagrid]

I would think that the information should be passed onto CRO (or the local cave rescue team) and that it should be up to their discretion to choose how to proceed. Rather than someone with no knowledge of caving to make the decision.

It does make more sense to phone the cave rescue team instead of the police. Would make things happen much quicker and easier.
Shame about insurance really

 

[mikem]

Who would you call at cave rescue?

The road & bull pot farm being in Cumbria, whilst incident happened in Lancashire (plus call out in Northumbria & rescue team in Yorkshire) won't have helped speed of response...

Mind you, it looks like you were lucky to get it that quick - average response on non life threatening is now 5 1/2 hours:

Police taking over five hours to respond to priority calls

Some police forces taking an average of over 18 hours to respond to priority calls

www.libdems.org.uk

 

[Babyhagrid]

Who would you call at cave rescue?

The list of cave rescue wardens.
For south Wales the list is on the wall inside the SWCC with names and numbers.

 

[mikem]

But they aren't in all huts and many calls outs are from elsewhere anyway

 

[Ian Ball]

haha what a great visit to get, CRO are here to rescue the other half of your exchange trip.

I know CRO are keen not to put people off calling for help from the skilled operatives and quite right too, no critics here.

I also think that making Cumbria Highways, CRO, North Yorks Police, SMRT and UWFRA drive around the hills after midnight brings a risk to them which they accept and mitigate but is still putting others at risk.

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

haha what a great visit to get, CRO are here to rescue the other half of your exchange trip.

I know CRO are keen not to put people off calling for help from the skilled operatives and quite right too, no critics here.

I also think that making Cumbria Highways, CRO, North Yorks Police, SMRT and UWFRA drive around the hills after midnight brings a risk to them which they accept and mitigate but is still putting others at risk.

no one is 'making' them do anything. They are volunteers and have a choice in it.

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

haha what a great visit to get, CRO are here to rescue the other half of your exchange trip.

I know CRO are keen not to put people off calling for help from the skilled operatives and quite right too, no critics here.

I also think that making Cumbria Highways, CRO, North Yorks Police, SMRT and UWFRA drive around the hills after midnight brings a risk to them which they accept and mitigate but is still putting others at risk.

Also, they wouldn't have to be driving after midnight if they had been called out earlier.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Moral of the story is don't expect cave rescue to arrive swiftly. They certainly will if they can, but there are many reasons why things can get delayed. Caving is a 'remote' activity. It is to the credit of the stranded party that they were well-equipped. If I ended up lost in a cave and missed a callout, I'd be perfectly happy if the controllers decided to give it another hour or whatever before deploying a full team (after all, it's my mistake). Then if there are delays with information gathering (which can be many things other than the police), if the road is blocked by snow, if it just takes a while to gather people late at night etc. then I would be extremely grateful with cavers setting off three hours after the callout time. This also comes back to the old adage of having at least four people in a caving group so that in the event of an injury, one can stay with the casualty and two can leave to raise the alarm (not that I ever stick to that, of course).

The 'correct' way to call out Cave Rescue is to phone 999, ask for the Police and then Cave Rescue. You should always do this first.
Cave Rescue teams each make their own arrangements about how callouts are passed on to the team and no team will tell you to do anything else.
Beyond that, use common sense...

I think we can all agree that delays in police forces passing on information is not ideal, but it is a long-standing issue with no simple resolution as cave rescues (particularly missed callouts) just won't be a major priority given their extreme rarity.

 

[Babyhagrid]

But they aren't in all huts and many calls outs are from elsewhere anyway

They are in my phone

 

[andrewmcleod]

Perhaps we could focus a bit less on worrying about things we already know that we can't fix here, and spend a bit more time being happy that:
a) there is a rescue team willing to go out in the middle of the night and look for people, and who have _not_ complained at all about doing so,
b) that the stranded party were well equipped, had a call-out set, and so have been happily rescued.

I am very grateful to all the rescue team members who's evenings were disrupted to a greater or lesser degree so they can help some cavers in need. I am very glad that if I ever end up in a similar situation there are people who will be willing to go out of their way to help.

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

Perhaps we could focus a bit less on worrying about things we already know that we can't fix here, and spend a bit more time being happy that:
a) there is a rescue team willing to go out in the middle of the night and look for people, and who have _not_ complained at all about doing so,
b) that the stranded party were well equipped, had a call-out set, and so have been happily rescued.

I am very grateful to all the rescue team members who's evenings were disrupted to a greater or lesser degree so they can help some cavers in need. I am very glad that if I ever end up in a similar situation there are people who will be willing to go out of their way to help.

We can't fix it entirely, but it may be that highlighting it, and others sharing their experiences of similar incidents, will help the BCRC to explore options that may help with these situations

 

[mikem]

It seems that the problem here is that local police forces don't have a system for emergency contacting other areas (although they must when requiring assistance) - unfortunately I'm not sure that we are a big enough issue for them to resolve that, but it's worth looking at

They are in my phone

So everyone is going to keep an up to date list are they..?

 

[traff]

CRO were tipped off about the incident quickly but couldn't really act until the police call came through due to legalities.

This I find intriguing. I can't see anything illegal about looking for an overdue party. Presumably more along the lines that CRO insurance doesn't cover them until they have offically been asked to help by the Police?

 

[mikem]

Police are responsible for searches, so they have to be informed first. As you say, team won't be covered by insurance otherwise

 

[RobinGriffiths]

I think the probem (at the moment) is that insurance cover for the rescue teams doesn't kick in unless they've been mobilised via the police.

 

[Babyhagrid]

It seems that the problem here is that local police forces don't have a system for emergency contacting other areas (although they must when requiring assistance) - unfortunately I'm not sure that we are a big enough issue for them to resolve that, but it's worth looking at


So everyone is going to keep an up to date list are they..?

If the system worked that you phoned a controller instead of the police. Then I would expect that responsible cavers would have the relevant numbers saved.

However as it isn't the case. No people won't keep up to date lists.

 

[mikem]

Can't expect someone to be on call for 7 incidents a day (all mountain & cave). However, an automated system could easily be set up, but the main problem 999 have is prank calls & this would presumably attract the same

 

[Rhys]

Most callouts based around the SWCC area never go through 999. The rescue team get to know via the callout board and the team will "ask permission" from, or in actual fact tell, the police that they are taking action. There's no reason CRO couldn't do this if they knew something was occurring - maybe they did. They don't have to sit on their hands waiting to be called.

The Police should immediately be handing cave rescue calls over for the experts to decide the course of action, not trying to judge for themselves whether it requires urgent attention, or not. But this breakdown in communication between 999 and the teams has being going on for decades, even before mobile phones were in common use.