Cave Rescue Procedures (continued)

[aricooperdavis]

For every person underground there are more or less an equal number of surface team member on the shout.

Sometimes you are underground sometimes not.

I couldn't tell if you were replying to me, but it's worth clarifying anyway: I have used "underground work" and "surface work" to differentiate between cave/mine and non-cave/mine SAR work, not because I'm trying to imply that all cave/mine SAR work happens underground. My apologies if this was unclear. On the last rescue I attended there were 2 cave-rescuers underground and about 10 on the surface (as well as loads from other services).

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

One vital thing that teams are looking for is "Team" members who will do what they are told, follow instructions, and
not be all "I know it all already!"

At no point have I claimed to know everything. There are many, many things that I don't know in the world and I have significantly less experience than many other people, as is natural for a younger person. I've simply had less time on this earth. I've got a lot left to learn and I'll be the first person to admit that.

Paul asked me what my experience in the mountains was so I replied to him. I did not say that I 'know it all'.

However, I'm still entitled to form and share opinions based on the information & experiences that I *do* have. That's the point of a forum. If only those with the 'most' experience were allowed to have freedom of speech, then the Houses of Parliament would be a nursing home.

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

An anonymous team member would like me to share this:

"I probably shouldn't say anything, but the issue is teams appear to be pushing out cavers now, with a larger enthesis on surface than caving as it's the majority of what the teams do, now. At least that's my experience in the team I am in. This is understandable, as we rarely get any cave call outs now, but if it keeps going in this direction there won't be many cavers left when there's that big shout, as the rules get more and more stringent and skewed even-more towards surface over underground, then more and more experienced cavers will leave, which has been the case recently."

 

[mikem]

If all the cavers get pushed out then there will be need to set up a cave only service

 

[paul]

I can understand discussion on how to call out cave rescue, what happens when you do, how the teams function and train, etc. But I don't understand what would be achieved by discussing issues with specific teams and their treatment of cave versus mountain rescue, or issues with being able or not able to join a specific team on a forum such as this. Surely the best way of getting answers is to ask the specific team themselves? If their answer is not satisfactory, then discussing it on here is unlikely to change anything. Or am I misunderstanding the aim of these discussions?

 

[aricooperdavis]

I can understand discussion on [...] how the teams function and train, etc.

Personally that's what I'm finding interesting about this thread - I don't know enough about CRO to comment on how they work, so I've tried to keep my discussion about how mixed teams might be structured quite generic.

Recent changes within MREW have highlighted the distinctions between cave and surface teams, so I think it's pretty natural for cavers to start asking how this impacts hybrid teams, and what this means for rescue.

 

[langcliffe]

I can understand discussion on how to call out cave rescue, what happens when you do, how the teams function and train, etc. But I don't understand what would be achieved by discussing issues with specific teams and their treatment of cave versus mountain rescue, or issues with being able or not able to join a specific team on a forum such as this. Surely the best way of getting answers is to ask the specific team themselves? If their answer is not satisfactory, then discussing it on here is unlikely to change anything. Or am I misunderstanding the aim of these discussions?

I actually think that the points being made are general, and worthy of debate by the many, rather than being restricted to a discussion between an individual and representatives of a team which may have an ingrained culture. If a majority of those interested in the subject have a consensus that the current modus operandi aren't working, maybe the teams will take another look at the issues. It would presumably be in their interests to do so.

Personally, I agree with some of the contributions, but not convinced by many.

 

[A_Northerner]

Been able to drive generally is a requirement as you could be needed to move team vehicles or attend a second call out.

Also the matter of attending things when your lift isn't available.

How far into your own shakehole did you have to reach to pull this statement out? I'd say as a cave rescue volunteer you'd be far more likely to be needed to man a radio, or go underground than drive a team vehicle. As for attending a second call out, this implies you're already in attendance of a first callout, during which you'll have access to other team members' vehicles. If it's as black-and-white as it sounds, I'm not sure how this blanket "driving is required" policy is defensible really.

I've been in DCRO for the best part of a decade and at no point was I asked if I could drive, and I couldn't when I started as a student. I was welcomed aboard with 3 or 4 of my contemporaries, only 1 of whom had a vehicle at that point, and we all attended training and rescue shouts in that one vehicle. DCRO training officer also set up a lift-sharing Facebook group to help team members without vehicles get lifts from other DCRO members.

 

[wellyjen]

The vehicle insurance policy that all teams use is limited to named drivers only, who have been through a familiarisation and license checking process, so a subset of each team. Extra training if it is an off-roader and even more if the blues and twos are to be used on the road.

 

[A_Northerner]

The vehicle insurance policy that all teams use is limited to named drivers only, who have been through a familiarisation and license checking process, so a subset of each team. Extra training if it is an off-roader and even more if the blues and twos are to be used on the road.

Exactly, DCRO have 2 vehicles and I think we only have 3 or 4 people that can drive them. It's simply not true what Ed is saying about needing to be a driver to join the team because you might need to drive a vehicle. Maybe in the '70s when you might have been called on to drive a Land Rover up to Tatty Wife in the snow, because the usual driver has had 7 pints of Old Peculiar in the Hill Inn and you've only had 5.

 

[al]

Exactly, DCRO have 2 vehicles and I think we only have 3 or 4 people that can drive them. It's simply not true what Ed is saying about needing to be a driver to join the team because you might need to drive a vehicle. Maybe in the '70s when you might have been called on to drive a Land Rover up to Tatty Wife in the snow, because the usual driver has had 7 pints of Old Peculiar in the Hill Inn and you've only had 5.

Ah, boggling - those were the days! Never mind driving, can you boggle? (Tatham Wife's a bit of a tall order, mind!)

 

[mikem]

From FB - may be worth completing, or not:

Mountaineering Scotland is running a survey, aimed at anyone from the UK who has needed to be rescued from the hills or mountains, either by a recognised rescue team or by fellow hillwalkers and mountaineers.

➡️The link to the survey is at https://uk.surveymonkey.com/r/mountain-incident

🚑They want to hear people's story of what happened leading up to the rescue and what they think were the contributing factors, as well as what they have learnt from it. It is hoped that collecting all these stories will help organisations (including us in MREW!) and individuals who are focused on mountain safety develop appropriate and more effective messaging.

🥾It's all about enabling people to have safer adventures and reduce the burden on mountain rescue teams. But the survey organisers need to hear from the people themselves!

🗓️There is no time frame for the survey as the current plan is to keep it open for as long as people are willing to fill it out. Incidents can be recent or historical.

📷Steve Penny, Scottish Mountain Rescue.

 

[davel]

Mountaineering Scotland is running a survey, aimed at anyone from the UK who has needed to be rescued from the hills or mountains, either by a recognised rescue team or by fellow hillwalkers and mountaineers.

➡️The link to the survey is at https://uk.surveymonkey.com/r/mountain-incident

Link should be https://uk.surveymonkey.com/r/mountain-incidents

Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be any information as to where or when results will be published.

Dave

 

[aricooperdavis]

boggling

What's boggling? Other than a word game you play at the Wessex whist consuming vast quantities of tea?

 

[al]

What's boggling? Other than a word game you play at the Wessex whist consuming vast quantities of tea?

Sorry - if you transport yourself back to the very early 70s, maybe even earlier, say when Dusty and Gogs were temporarily "managing" the Hill Inn, there was a "thing" (boggling) whereby various vehicles were driven well off road. The pub in those days had plenty of photographic evidence of some quite amazing places, and angles.

Wouldn't happen these days ... of course!

 

[mikem]

In the Falklands they carry huge bungees in the 4x4s to drag other vehicles out of the bogs

 

[Riftpotter]

I’m a caver of old and still very fit for my age (71) I’ve just got back into the sport after a long lay off.
Ive been easing myself in with a few simple show cave trips, White Scar, Ingleborough Cave, Stump Cross Caverns and I’m looking forward to going on expedition down south exploring Wookey Hole shortly.
I hold a full clean driving license and up until now I’ve never considered applying to join UWFRA or CRO or any other MRT teams but after reading some of the comments on this thread I feel I’m adequately qualified.



Frank