Caving/Climbing and the younger generation!

[Dave]

I have just been having a conversation/argument with one of my climbing mates discussing both climbing and caving-now he seems to think that climbing is the cool sport that every young person wants to do mainly because of the two sports reputation;

Climbing-sitting round a nice crag with the sun out in your expensive designer climbing cloths

                                          or

Caving-crawling through tight wet muddy and dark place freezing cold-I'll leave it there as i really want to get under ground now!!

now we all no that both those descriptions are wrong for a start what about the rain and snow and freezing wind you have when in the mountains and what about walking down passage after passage of amazing formations in a cave.

Anyway this conversation we had got me thinking-how many young serious active caver's are there when i say young i mean over 18 ( for obvious reasons ) but under 25?

Does your club have much younger fresh blood?

I help take groups of novices underground to try and advertise the sport, but is caving ever going to be as popular as say climbing? My opinion is climbing has become very commercial and it is based around image where caving does not need a cool image because any one who is serious about it just does it they do not bother with the latest hip clothing but both sports are really the same as it take a different sort of person to choose one or the other..

sorry if i have babbled on here, but it would be interesting to hear other peoples thoughts

  Cheers 

 

[graham]

Yes.

 

[AndyF]

I have just been having a conversation/argument with one of my climbing mates discussing both climbing and caving-now he seems to think that climbing is the cool sport that every young person wants to do mainly because of the two sports reputation;

Climbing-sitting round a nice crag with the sun out in your expensive designer climbing cloths

                                          or

Caving-crawling through tight wet muddy and dark place freezing cold-I'll leave it there as i really want to get under ground now!!

hi,

I think your friend is correct. Add to it a higher female participation in climbing and it's a done deal. Climbing is about looking good, being fit and looking cool. More time at the gym than on the crags. Caving is indeed gruesome for much of the time........digging is even worse......  God I love it! 

 

[whitelackington]

Caving is cheaper

 

[cap n chris]

is caving ever going to be as popular as say climbing?

Pretty unlikely.

For conservation reasons it wouldn't be very welcome.

It would be hard to tell if the numbers were the same since you can't get a guestimate very easily.

Caving's harder and therefore less attractive.

Caving doesn't attract posers `cos you don't have an audience.

Climbing suits less fit people since it's mostly waiting and then five minutes of action followed by a load of waiting again etc. etc..

Flaming anticipated....

 

[darkplaces]

Graham  :spank:

Climbing is sadly seen as cooler then caving, because its visible, you can watch it and so its normalized... Also it doesn't seam to have the fear factor that caving has.

Take for example the fact that you can turn up regardless of who you are experience wise and climb. National parks, avon gorge, anywhere and you don't have some tosser asking for your insurance or club or permit details. Climbing is accessible and TV, websites etc don't bang on about how you should NOT do it.

Were as caving requires permits, insurance, a key to unlock the gate, any material on the TV or websites or publications all say dont go down without insurence, being professionally lead etc etc etc blah blah. and finally.... caving needs special cameras etc, caving isn't watched as much just look at all the effort it took to create the amazing BBC program about caves - Caving by its very nature is hidden and so abnormal.

When was the last time you watched an adventure holiday program that featured caving as much as it did climbing? WHite water rafting, climbing, walking... er and weres the caving?

Sorry to bang on about the same old same old but its what is causing the problem. Its not caving clubs fault but then maybe it is?, I think we need to see more fight against restrictive access. I know it does happen, Box for example, maybe more about it published.

Surly if cavers need insurance then climbs need insurance for all exactly the same reasons.

 

[cap n chris]

Err, DP, I think you'll find that you are required to have insurance for climbing (via BMC) at many prime locations.

 

[SamT]

Sorry to bang on about the same old same old but its what is causing the problem.

Erm what problem.  :-\

Back on Topic anyway - and in answer to dave.

There is definately a younger generation coming through. Mainly based in the Uni clubs.  Just look at the CHECC threads to see how vibrant that scene currently is.

Remember Ben Moon saying the same in 'The Power of Climbing' something like - " There is no younger generation" .Cue Malc Smith et al kicking ass.

There are some keen youths in derbyshire - pushing stuff all over the place, as well as doing some pretty hard "sports" caving - just for fun. Witness Rob Eavis Rob Middleton and Jeff Wade doing Maskill to Giants, Nettle and Titan to Peak in a day.

so the answers Yes there are keen youths.

and No - it will probably never be as popular as climbing.
However - you can easily devide the umbrella word 'climbing' into lots and lots of sub - discaplines
so
Will caving ever be as popular Bouldering - NO
Will caving ever be as popular as Alpine Big Walling - It probably already is.

 

[darkplaces]

Err, DP, I think you'll find that you are required to have insurance for climbing (via BMC) at many prime locations.

Maybe at climbing centers but basicly you can climb any old rock face. So really its still true you can turn up to virtually any rock face and climb and its seams OK. The young have access to climbing.

The Young have access to the underground but tend to be shunned for not being insured, thought off as vandals, trespassers, called idiots for not going underground with someone who knows what they are doing... blah blah.

 

[cap n chris]

basicly you can climb any old rock face.

Simply not true. Certainly it is the case that in Cheddar Gorge (over 1,000 climbing routes IIRC) it is a stipulation that all climbers must be members of BMC (i.e. insured).

 

[SamT]

Dont worry - DP is obv in one of his anti estblishment moods. 

Insurance politics has very very little to do with the popularity / appeal of rock climbing/caving in the eyes of the yoof.

 

[Stu]

basicly you can climb any old rock face.

Simply not true. Certainly it is the case that in Cheddar Gorge (over 1,000 climbing routes IIRC) it is a stipulation that all climbers must be members of BMC (i.e. insured).

To be honest Chris, as a lapsed climber I'm hard pushed to name too many crags where insurance is a stipulation. I'd say it very much is the exception.

Bouldering rather than climbing is what I think has caught the imagination to add something to the pot.

 

[cap n chris]

basicly you can climb any old rock face.

Simply not true. Certainly it is the case that in Cheddar Gorge (over 1,000 climbing routes IIRC) it is a stipulation that all climbers must be members of BMC (i.e. insured).

To be honest Chris, as a lapsed climber I'm hard pushed to name too many crags where insurance is a stipulation. I'd say it very much is the exception.

Bouldering rather than climbing is what I think has caught the imagination to add something to the pot.

I agree; however, my response to DP was simply to highlight that his assertion wasn't correct. It's a bit like saying "You can walk anywhere you like".

 

[JB]

Simply not true. Certainly it is the case that in Cheddar Gorge (over 1,000 climbing routes IIRC) it is a stipulation that all climbers must be members of BMC (i.e. insured).

Access to crags is thankfully pretty free from interference. Cheddar is an exception due the specific circumstances where cars and tourists are directly in the line of fire beneath some particularly loose rock. You don't have to be a BMC member to climb there but you're right you must have public liability insurance. The vast majority of the crags in the UK (everything in the mountains, sea cliffs, gritstone, Scottish winter) don't require public liability insurance or membership of any club. You just turn up and off you go. Cheddar is the only place that I've had to show proof of insurance etc. to climb.

 

[cap n chris]

Cheers for the info, JB.

 

[Stu]

I agree; however, my response to DP was simply to highlight that his assertion wasn't correct. It's a bit like saying "You can walk anywhere you like".

In that then, you are correct sir!

 

[JB]

I agree; however

Chris. Soz - Just saw your earlier post. You probably knew that.

 

[Dave]

cheers for your replies guys.

as a younger active caver i understand both sides and i do think it is a shame that things like sport are now based more and more around image  8) , oh well. you all made excellent points-particularly about cave conservation, cap'n Chris, that is a very good point and i am very annoyed at myself for not thinking about it  .

it just shows how amazing caver's are-we do not need to train that much for caving, rather than spend hours in the gym we spend hours in the pub 

CONCLUSION-

more females are needed to boost youth caving numbers!?

oh to cover my back against hate mail- i do not mean to call any of you old by referring to just myself as young in some sentences, and climbing is still a great sport that i still love ( but caving is better-especially now i have the digging bug after a trip to Matienzo )

Cheers

 

[emgee]

Err, DP, I think you'll find that you are required to have insurance for climbing (via BMC) at many prime locations.

Maybe at climbing centers but basicly you can climb any old rock face. So really its still true you can turn up to virtually any rock face and climb and its seams OK. The young have access to climbing.

The Young have access to the underground but tend to be shunned for not being insured, thought off as vandals, trespassers, called idiots for not going underground with someone who knows what they are doing... blah blah.

You need to try Derbyshire mate. Plenty of nice holes you can just walk/crawl/ab into.

 

[AndyF]

<Snip>......( but caving is better-especially now i have the digging bug after a trip to Matienzo )

Cheers

Quick! .....a digging volunteer ... get him somebody