Caving Dogs
- Thread starter Amy
- Start date
Katie
Active member
Yup, guilty of taking the dog and small children underground and also a leader on a cave rescue team......
The trip in the photo with the little baby was on the 1st of December and was less 'extreme' than taking the dog and kids on a surface dog walk in cold, windy and rainy weather. The kids come on the dog walk everyday (from 1 day old) whatever the weather and an easy caving trip with adults who are experienced sensible cavers is in many ways less challenging and in this country often warmer!
Please don't hear me as saying you are not allowed your own opinion - I just wish to point out it seems you base the opinion on a lot of very false assumptions.cooleycr said:
No one forces their dog to cave, or to be on rope, or to go hiking, or <insert activity here>. Well, no one worth a damn.
As for vertical, considering a lot of SAR teams that utilize dogs have them trained (at least in vertical / mountainous areas) to a life safety vertical harness so they *can* get their dog over the terrain, quite sure many a dog is perfectly happy with it. In the same way that no one puts their human friend in a harness and shoves them over a cliff or down a hole, neither do dog trainers. A human you get them used to the harness, have them sit in it get it adjusted and feel comfy on a training tower, then maybe rappel and climb the tower, and slowly do harder and harder caves/cliffs. The same with dogs. Step one is simply shaping them to accept the harness - and most get very exciting when their working harness comes out because it means FUN! (maybe I need to record the start of one our searches so you can see how bouncy happy the dogs get!) Then you work on getting them used to feeling the harness hold their weight. Then you start working on some very short and gradually longer drops.
Think about this logically for a bit: A dog not happy in their harness will flail. A flailing dog is a dangerous dog - to themselves and the people. A dog flailing is also fearful, and a in context of working dogs, a fearful dog cannot what? Do their job they were trained for! And lots of dogs DO need a job. That's kinda what a working dog is. Dogs that need to be able to be dropped in from helicopters - which perhaps is less common in the UK but out in the mountains here it is quite common to start closer to the last known point, also need to be good with being in a life safety harness.
Of course dogs trained to this level is not your pet dog norm, but considering a lot of cavers are also rescuers there is high likelyhood of crossover (as this thread has shown). This isn't Sam shoving Fido into a backpack and going down a cave, that won't end well for anyone but it's not the dog it's the idiot person. Which goes back to my point of basically "dont be an idiot" and each case is unique.
Anyway...here is my dog comfortably wearing her life safety harness. Notice relaxed face, easy eyes, forward relaxed ears, soft eyes. This is doggie language for "this is fine".
And I also don't see anything wrong with people having fun with their dog outdoors above or underground as long as conservation and basic safety is met, same as with any human. The thing to remember is dogs have a bell curve of "extreme" skills like humans do. People get upset about all the things Jumpy does but Jumpy is a highly trained highly athletic highly fit dog, notice the incredibly good form and muscle tone.
Anyway. Have fun with your dog, within your and your dog's abilities, and all will be good with the world. If that is SAR, parkour, hiking, backpacking, caving...be safe, don't be stupid, conserve, and have fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5h96AVj39c
cooleycr
Active member
Dogs are not humans and, as ably demonstrated in the video, though doubtless very intelligent, will do what humans tell them to do through learned responses.
We will have to agree to disagree, my opinion is based on animal welfare facts.
Edraith looks like she is having a great time in the cave and I wish you both many years of happy safe caving.
We will have to agree to disagree, my opinion is based on animal welfare facts.
Edraith looks like she is having a great time in the cave and I wish you both many years of happy safe caving.
As do human children...and human adults...we all learn by reinforcement. You wouldnt work if you didnt get something for it. Like paid. What you say holds across everyliving thinking being and this is why methods are so important. To create an enviornment and a relationship where the person or animal *can* say no, and feel safe doing so. Does a human or animal obey out of fear, force, or their desire because they like you? Animal and human behavior is actually not far disconnected. We can predict further consequences of choices but the way in which we learn is not at all dissimilar.
I do hope that as suchh a purveyor of animal welfare you are aware that Cesar Milan is planning another UK lecture circuit and are one of the peopleprotesting his entry into the country. He has single handly done more damage to dogs well being than anyone else I can think of due to his national and growing international platform to spew outdated and harmful training methods. We really started to make stride in the 80s with people like Karen Pryor and the now late Sophia Yin. Ian Dumbar is another you may be more aware of. But then Cesar is given a TVshow about a decade ago and despite animal behaviorists and vets protesting, hes been launched to a sensational status which has pushed many back to dark ages of training. I do hope at least we can agree on this. And i assume as such a wellfareist you are already aware and protesting
I do hope that as suchh a purveyor of animal welfare you are aware that Cesar Milan is planning another UK lecture circuit and are one of the peopleprotesting his entry into the country. He has single handly done more damage to dogs well being than anyone else I can think of due to his national and growing international platform to spew outdated and harmful training methods. We really started to make stride in the 80s with people like Karen Pryor and the now late Sophia Yin. Ian Dumbar is another you may be more aware of. But then Cesar is given a TVshow about a decade ago and despite animal behaviorists and vets protesting, hes been launched to a sensational status which has pushed many back to dark ages of training. I do hope at least we can agree on this. And i assume as such a wellfareist you are already aware and protesting
Mark Wright
Active member
This thread reminded me of a dog that actually trained itself to go caving, and vertical caving at that. The dog, a Jack Russell I think, decided to go for a trip down Eldon Hole, about half way down the 60m entrance shaft.
Unfortunately this was before Facebook and the internet so it hadn't done any research on how it might get back up again. Before long some humans arrived and called the DCRO and it was recovered. It was then adopted by Liz and Fish Jeanmaire who lived at the bottom of Eldon Lane. Not deterred by its previous experience, the dog decided to go for another trip, again without the appropriate equipment, and was duly rescued a second time by DCRO.
'Elly' as she was named, went on to set up the Derbyshire based Canine Caverneers. They can be regularly seen cocking their legs on many of the lamp posts around Castleton.
Mark
Unfortunately this was before Facebook and the internet so it hadn't done any research on how it might get back up again. Before long some humans arrived and called the DCRO and it was recovered. It was then adopted by Liz and Fish Jeanmaire who lived at the bottom of Eldon Lane. Not deterred by its previous experience, the dog decided to go for another trip, again without the appropriate equipment, and was duly rescued a second time by DCRO.
'Elly' as she was named, went on to set up the Derbyshire based Canine Caverneers. They can be regularly seen cocking their legs on many of the lamp posts around Castleton.
Mark
mrodoc
Well-known member
My first encounter with a caving dog was just after I started caving about 50 years ago. We were visiting Pridhamsleigh Cavern and approaching the lake when we heard barking and splashing. Around the corner we met some PCG members one of whom closely resembled Captain Haddock. We found them throwing things into the lake for a small white terrier which was enthusiastically retrieving them. It's name it will no surprise to learn was Snowy althoug it wasn't very obvious until it washed in the river outside after the trip! I also believe Dan yr Ogof caves had a rescue dog one year as publicity stunt.
I have a faint recollection of visiting an easy cave in the Dales ? probably Long Churn ? years ago, and hearing the sound of pan pipes; to my astonishment, down the passage came a guy playing the pipes with a dog in tow . . . the Pied Piper, huh? But in all fairness, the mutt appeared to be enjoying itself.
mrodoc said:
"In 1994 a two-year-old Labrador called Sophie became Britain's first cave rescue dog. A South Wales rescue team taught her how to find her way through the nine miles of twisting passageways in the Dan-yr-Ogof caves complex. Sophie offered obvious advantages as she could squeeze through the narrowest of spaces and had a great nose for finding people. She was equipped with a special torch strapped to her head and carried a pouch with chocolate, a thermal blanket and another torch inside" R.Harris, M.Leigh & M.Lepine "True animal tales", Century: London, 1996, p.56. Also reported in Descent but I cannot readily find it.
wormster
Active member
caving dogs eh??
I went on a DP holiday moons ago one of the members bought "Daisy The Mine Exploring Dog" along on a trip down Mainoffren, she was a right pain, getting under everyone's feet and tripods when we stopped for photo opportunities, worse yet when we stopped and opened our bait boxes she would come scrounging for food, after a few "feck off's" from me she learned not to bother me!
Another time we went to Cwm Croseor to have a look at Croesor mine (long before the CRTT had been established) we took Will Perrin's mum and her dog Bonnie, she (the dog that is) didn't enjoy an unplanned swim in the little dam pool at the bottom of the incline! but coped well with the rest of the trip.
Swan mine was visited with a few BEC members plus "The Mad Yank" woman and her 2 daughters and 2 dogs, that trip was short as neither the dogs or daughters enjoyed it!
My mate the HunterMan has a wee Jack Russel, Dragon, perfect size for a 50m rope bag, but the HunterMan, wont allow me to take Dragon underground when I look after him, even though I know he'd be ok.
I suppose that any dog as long as it is introduced to the environment at an early age will be aufait with heading under, you see lots of videos on yootoob of folk taking their dogs surfing, parachuting, cycling etc, they all look as if they're having as much fun as their human companions, so why not underground??
I went on a DP holiday moons ago one of the members bought "Daisy The Mine Exploring Dog" along on a trip down Mainoffren, she was a right pain, getting under everyone's feet and tripods when we stopped for photo opportunities, worse yet when we stopped and opened our bait boxes she would come scrounging for food, after a few "feck off's" from me she learned not to bother me!
Another time we went to Cwm Croseor to have a look at Croesor mine (long before the CRTT had been established) we took Will Perrin's mum and her dog Bonnie, she (the dog that is) didn't enjoy an unplanned swim in the little dam pool at the bottom of the incline! but coped well with the rest of the trip.
Swan mine was visited with a few BEC members plus "The Mad Yank" woman and her 2 daughters and 2 dogs, that trip was short as neither the dogs or daughters enjoyed it!
My mate the HunterMan has a wee Jack Russel, Dragon, perfect size for a 50m rope bag, but the HunterMan, wont allow me to take Dragon underground when I look after him, even though I know he'd be ok.
I suppose that any dog as long as it is introduced to the environment at an early age will be aufait with heading under, you see lots of videos on yootoob of folk taking their dogs surfing, parachuting, cycling etc, they all look as if they're having as much fun as their human companions, so why not underground??
RobinGriffiths
Well-known member
Wonder if the monks put the collie turds in black bags and hang them off trees ?
Tony_B
Member
robjones said:
Some facts required here, before this becomes established as history. The dog in question was used, as mrodoc suggests, as a publicity stunt. She appeared on [children's TV programme] Blue Peter in her rescue garb and an accompanying film told the tale of how Sophie had rescued a 'caver' - actually a member of the showcave staff posing as a cave digger. The rescue team was never involved, and indeed the whole episode caused a rather unpleasant falling-out between cavers and the showcave management, after a member of the rescue team rang the TV people involved and told them they'd been hoodwinked.
chrisporcheret
New member
https://youtu.be/zRjk-dG96Sw my beautiful staffy enjoys caving
