Caving for infidels
- Thread starter exsumper
- Start date
rhychydwr1
Active member
cap 'n chris said:
OK, what is a slide rule? Answers please from anybody under 30.
exsumper
New member
WOW!! The tone of the numerous responses appear to explain the observed lack of a rush to Sunday morning worship, by the occupants of every caving hut I've ever stayed at in my entire life.
Are cavers mostly atheists???
It would be interesting to see how many cavers who visit this forum are actually atheists Perhaps Graham or Cap'n Chris could oblige by posting one of those vote based surveys that occasionally appear on this forum. I'd do it myself but I'm appallingly non computer literate; and bone idle.
As a control: It might be worth running a parallel survey asking how many cavers believe in Father Christmas.
Are cavers mostly atheists???
It would be interesting to see how many cavers who visit this forum are actually atheists Perhaps Graham or Cap'n Chris could oblige by posting one of those vote based surveys that occasionally appear on this forum. I'd do it myself but I'm appallingly non computer literate; and bone idle.
As a control: It might be worth running a parallel survey asking how many cavers believe in Father Christmas.
teabag
Member
It's an interesting question and I have set up a survey on Idle Chat with only two possible answers (yes/no) to avoid getting embroiled in semantics of agnostic/ humanist/... shades of atheism.
Enjoy!
For the record, I run a Beaver scout group in a village. The Beaver scout promise is "I promise to do my best to be kind and helpful and to love god". I realise this is a ridiculous promise to ask 6/7 year olds to make, but for me it is more important that they get the opportunity to be less computer-bound and cossetted than to argue over wording of something they say which is not really referred to again.
You can make your own mind up whether I am an atheist.
Enjoy!
For the record, I run a Beaver scout group in a village. The Beaver scout promise is "I promise to do my best to be kind and helpful and to love god". I realise this is a ridiculous promise to ask 6/7 year olds to make, but for me it is more important that they get the opportunity to be less computer-bound and cossetted than to argue over wording of something they say which is not really referred to again.
You can make your own mind up whether I am an atheist.
paull
New member
Ive been an explorer scout leader since 2002 and a venture scout leader for 3 years before that , I totally agree how stupid it is in this day and age to hold a young person to the scout promise. Over the past few years the association has put a lot of time and effort into improving the image and the way people look at scouting
I would like to see the promise changed into a way that it does not discriminate atheists , I have in the past ignored the promise when I know a scout is an atheist and excused them for not saying it. After all it is an organisation that is supposed to be all about the kids so it should be changed so all young people can benefit from scouting
I would like to see the promise changed into a way that it does not discriminate atheists , I have in the past ignored the promise when I know a scout is an atheist and excused them for not saying it. After all it is an organisation that is supposed to be all about the kids so it should be changed so all young people can benefit from scouting
cap n chris
Well-known member
paull said:
Easy peasy!
"I promise to do my best to be kind and helpful
Rachel
Active member
The same thing happened to my daughter. She joined the local cubs, at which point I mentioned the fact that we weren't Christians and was told it didn't matter. However, when it came to making the promise, she was given a selection of promises to choose from - all of which involved promising to love one God or another. She was advised by one of the helpers to 'just say it, you don't have to believe it'. I was extremely proud when she stood up for herself and said she didn't believe in God or in telling lies. I took it up with the district commisioner and was told that the scout movement didn't want people like us joining. Erm, is that intelligent logical people then?
graham
New member
mikem said:
It would be interesting, though doubtless some would argue that this stuff is going well off-topic for a caving forum.
Given that most opinion polls show a majority in the country in favour of the proposed changes in the law on marriage, given the result of the poll - to date - on here and given the reaction that I have seen to a couple of, shall we say, interesting individuals on the caving scene over the years, I would guess that the result may, again, be on the liberal and enlightened side.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Hang on a minute; isn't the scout movent a church based organisation? If that's the case, is it surprising that all participants should be expected to make the oath? There's lots of other young persons' organisations; I guess you just have to make your choice. I don't see the problem.
r_walklate@hotmail.com
New member
Someone told me that if I wanted to join the caving fraternity I had to have
1. A beard
2. Drink real ale
3. Be a bit weird
Does that mean I am out???
1. A beard
2. Drink real ale
3. Be a bit weird
Does that mean I am out???
cap n chris
Well-known member
Pitlamp said:
Oaths are counter-Christian, though. Matthew 5:34. Jesus was strongly against them and made no bones about it. Any Church-based organisation that uses oaths to bind its followers/adherents isn't actually Christian and hence should be shunned. QED.
graham
New member
Pitlamp said:
Don't think that it is. When I was involved as a leader, there was nobody involved be it leaders, District Staff or on the parents committee that was directly involved with a church and certainly no-one in any position was appointed by any church.
Not sure that in the 1970s the church would have approved of our gay scout leader, but no-one involved turned a hair. He was in a long-term and stable relationship (not even civil partnerships in those days) and had no more prurient interest in young boys than any of our female leaders did.
teabag
Member
This is from the Scouts website:
Spiritual development
The Scout Association is an open association.
While requiring all Members to make the Promise which includes 'Duty to God' or ?Love God', The Scout Association does not identify itself with any one religion. There is no established Church within the Association.
Spiritual development implies that leaders and Members should be encouraged to follow the five principles.
1.Develop an inner discipline and training.
2.Be involved in corporate (group) activities with others.
3.Understand the world around them.
4.Help to create a more tolerant and caring society.
5.Discover the need for prayer and worship, both personal and shared.
These principles are what is meant by spiritual development in The Scout Association and it should be an integral part of every activity, meeting and event.
Spiritual development
The Scout Association is an open association.
While requiring all Members to make the Promise which includes 'Duty to God' or ?Love God', The Scout Association does not identify itself with any one religion. There is no established Church within the Association.
Spiritual development implies that leaders and Members should be encouraged to follow the five principles.
1.Develop an inner discipline and training.
2.Be involved in corporate (group) activities with others.
3.Understand the world around them.
4.Help to create a more tolerant and caring society.
5.Discover the need for prayer and worship, both personal and shared.
These principles are what is meant by spiritual development in The Scout Association and it should be an integral part of every activity, meeting and event.
cap n chris
Well-known member
teabag said:
This is counter-Christian. If you are following the teachings of JC you must not do this and if you're not a Christian you wouldn't want to anyway. Therefore the requirement to do it is risible on both counts. It should be shelved. With extreme prejudice.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
cap 'n chris said:
You've lost me there I'm afraid.
Be that as it may - when I was a youth I was in the scouts and I can honestly say I got a lot from it. (I was one of a fairly small number who got the Speleologists' badge!). I've had nothing to do with the scouts for many years simply because so many other spinning plates have prevented it. But I kind of always hoped that one day I'd be able to put something back into the organisation. Maybe I'll consider doing a bit of scout leading or something in the fullness of time when time permits. Or fund raising or something.
I confess I'm out of touch with the ethos of the scout movement at the moment.
I didn't know you were a scout leader Graham? You've gone up in my estimation (even more)!
But you'd be a bit weird if you didn't have a beard & drink real ale, so I'm afraid you're in... :tease:r_walklate said:Someone told me that if I wanted to join the caving fraternity I had to have
1. A beard
2. Drink real ale
3. Be a bit weird
Does that mean I am out???
Mike
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