Conservation Wardens?

[cap n chris]

And just how do you judge that someone "deserves" to see certain features that are tidily locked up?

Here's a method that works elsewhere....

It is a prerequisite for access to have received conservation education beforehand in certain parts of Spain (I imagine this is also the case elsewhere such as Belgium for example). Perhaps if access is improved, it should be after a prior conservation induction - the simplest induction being signs at cave entrances pointing out behaviour which should be obvious, but which clearly is not in some instances.

Education AND better access is what we should all be after.

Agreed. But the latter should be the prize for completing the former.

Cross-thread quotation (above) from this thread:
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=20158.msg259088#msg259088

 

[cavermark]

It's rarely just about numbers - 1000 cavers who know about conservation and go carefully may cause less damage than one ignorant destructive person.

 

[Simon Wilson]

And just how do you judge that someone "deserves" to see certain features that are tidily locked up?

Here's a method that works elsewhere....

It is a prerequisite for access to have received conservation education beforehand in certain parts of Spain (I imagine this is also the case elsewhere such as Belgium for example). Perhaps if access is improved, it should be after a prior conservation induction - the simplest induction being signs at cave entrances pointing out behaviour which should be obvious, but which clearly is not in some instances.

Education AND better access is what we should all be after.

Agreed. But the latter should be the prize for completing the former.

Cross-thread quotation (above) from this thread:
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=20158.msg259088#msg259088

You couldn't put a sign at a cave entrance in the Dales without permission. Most caves are protected as SSSI or higher level of protection so would require special permission.

 

[andrewmcleod]

And just how do you judge that someone "deserves" to see certain features that are tidily locked up? A mate? Several years in a favoured club? It's Elitism and it's disgusting. Of course it isn't bloody acceptable, it's the problem that caving has suffered from and has given it the bad reputation it has in certain areas.

(that's why I put 'lucky' in quotation marks )

I like the idea of obligatory cave conservation training - makes a fair and level playing field for everyone. Possibly exemption for people with awards such as CIC (assuming CIC training already includes consideration of conservation etc).

I bet most people on this thread probably assume they wouldn't really need such training. But thinking about it, I would probably benefit from such training - it would be interesting to find out what sort of mud formations are valuable for example. There are probably plenty of things I don't know about minimising impact that are more subtle than 'don't smash straws'. And it could be combined with some interesting stuff about how formations are formed and why they are both interesting and fragile.

I do find it confusing that sometimes in caves you have large formations that obviously you want to avoid, yet at other times you have formations that you either climb up on, squeeze past, or in some cases find have been deliberately broken to gain access...

 

[Peter Burgess]

"Getting permission". That's a sensitive subject, for some people. There are plenty of signs on SSSIs. Plenty.

 

[NewStuff]

If everyone has to sit a test before going caving, you run a very real risk of it turning into the driving awareness course of the caving world. No-one is going to take on board what is said, and it would only work in a Club setting. I suspect there are more cavers outside of the club system than in it. By increasing the barriers to entry, You'll put more people off of an organised environment where the inexperienced can be taught and helped to appreciate *why* we are careful.

 

[Kenilworth]

And just how do you judge that someone "deserves" to see certain features that are tidily locked up? A mate? Several years in a favoured club?

No, not like that.

I don't know what the answer may be for you in the UK. I'm barely beginning to come to terms with possible answers in the US. I agree with Chris that education is important. It is also an incomplete measure. Also, I couldn't possibly care less about the reputation of caving. Caving is a hobby. It doesn't need a reputation. People need reputations, and I value my own, not that of any individual activity I partake in. I've never been a part of a caving club, and though I'm a young man caving with a very small group of friends I feel that my practices and hard work have earned me a good reputation with landowners in my caving regions. This is at the root of my ideas for controlled access and conservation. We do not need clubs or organizations to facilitate uncommitted access.

Moreover elitism is not and has never been disgusting as long as it is justified. Let's pretend you have an irritating brain tumor. May I perform your operation? Why not? I'm not good enough? You want a top-notch surgeon? An elite team of doctors? Disgusting.

It's rarely just about numbers - 1000 cavers who know about conservation and go carefully may cause less damage than one ignorant destructive person.

You are correct. Obviously though, reducing traffic on general should reduce the likelihood of ignorant, destructive traffic.

 

[NewStuff]

Moreover elitism is not and has never been disgusting as long as it is justified. Let's pretend you have an irritating brain tumor. May I perform your operation? Why not? I'm not good enough? You want a top-notch surgeon? An elite team of doctors? Disgusting.

Well, apart from the legal requirement for a medical license....

It self-evidently not elitism, and comparing Caving to Neurosurgery is about as stupid as it gets. I am in favour of education, but it *needs* to be an education that works, that makes people care about conservation. Not a boring, test memorised by rote that is merely yet another barrier to actually getting underground. Most will say stuff it, and go anyway, without education, and that's when silly things happen.

 

[Kenilworth]

I'm not comparing the two. I'm trying to illustrate that sometimes our hard work qualifies us for privilege. This is not a bad thing.

I am in favour of education, but it *needs* to be an education that works, that makes people care about conservation. Not a boring, test memorised by rote that is merely yet another barrier to actually getting underground. Most will say stuff it, and go anyway, without education, and that's when silly things happen.

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[droid]

I am in favour of education, but it *needs* to be an education that works, that makes people care about conservation.

*Not a trick question*

How would you know when that 'education' had worked/

Preferably before damage happened....