CRoW Opinion Poll

[menacer]

Other caves, particularly deep ones in Yorkshire have access permit systems...It is not an intrinsically bad thing that access to such...potentially dangerous caves should be a little bit restricted - to protect...those who would visit them

Have we genuinely got someone here who is suggesting access to caves should be restricted and/or prohibited on the basis that they might be a little more taxing or strenuous than average?

I found myself in a surreal similar conversation with some folk from mendip. Cuthberts should remain warden controlled as to relax the restrictions on access to cavers, would result in rescues of cavers doing trips outside their ability, and possibly even death.
There are a number of cavers that do genuinely believe that.

Its not the facts of the statement that concern me at all, it is a possible scenario. As are people jumping of railway bridges onto tracks, people being splatted walking into the middle of roads.
All undeniable possible scenarios. (Yet society accepts it cant gate and fence every man made tumbling point)

Its the strange desire for some cavers to pitch themselves morally above others and determine that only they can decide what is appropriate for others, by applying restriction,s on others, but rarely themselves.
The reality is, no piece of paper, or leader system is going to stop these things from happening.

Does this happen in other outdoor pursuit sports?

 

[Bottlebank]

Other caves, particularly deep ones in Yorkshire have access permit systems...It is not an intrinsically bad thing that access to such...potentially dangerous caves should be a little bit restricted - to protect...those who would visit them

Have we genuinely got someone here who is suggesting access to caves should be restricted and/or prohibited on the basis that they might be a little more taxing or strenuous than average?

I found myself in a surreal similar conversation with some folk from mendip. Cuthberts should remain warden controlled as to relax the restrictions on access to cavers, would result in rescues of cavers doing trips outside their ability, and possibly even death.
There are a number of cavers that do genuinely believe that.

Its not the facts of the statement that concern me at all, it is a possible scenario. As are people jumping of railway bridges onto tracks, people being splatted walking into the middle of roads.
All undeniable possible scenarios. (Yet society accepts it cant gate and fence every man made tumbling point)

Its the strange desire for some cavers to pitch themselves morally above others and determine that only they can decide what is appropriate for others, by applying restriction,s on others, but rarely themselves.
The reality is, no piece of paper, or leader system is going to stop these things from happening.

Does this happen in other outdoor pursuit sports?

Jasonbirder has misquoted this, he's inserted a few full stops and completely changed the meaning of the original post to suit his own argument, the actual phrase was:

It is not an intrinsically bad thing that access to such rare and potentially dangerous caves should be a little bit restricted - to protect the caves and those who would visit them.

There are others who agree some caves should be protected.

 

[jasonbirder]

It was to demonstrate one aspect of his two seperate points...access restrictions to delicate caves for conservation purposes...was one (less controversial) point...access restrictions to more difficult caves to protect cavers was the other point...totally aginst the ethos of our sport!

 

[ah147]

It was to demonstrate one aspect of his two seperate points...access restrictions to delicate caves for conservation purposes...was one (less controversial) point...access restrictions to more difficult caves to protect cavers was the other point...totally aginst the ethos of our sport!

Seconded. Let's vote on it.


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[Peter Burgess]

I can understand why in some circumstances it would be wise to limit access and provide leaders for caves that have specific risks. Such access conditions in these circumstances would most likely be due to the concerns of third parties, not necessarily cavers.

 

[Pegasus]

Dear Santa,
I have been good for most of the year and what I would like to have most for Chritmas is some peace, harmony and mutual respect in what has always been a friendly and helpful community.

You and me both, Trotsky.....We'll do our best  :hug:

 

[Simon Wilson]

I can understand why in some circumstances it would be wise to limit access and provide leaders for caves that have specific risks. Such access conditions in these circumstances would most likely be due to the concerns of third parties, not necessarily cavers.

I suggest we put barbed wire fences around the bottom of certain selected difficult climbing routes and then have a system of guides which climbers are compelled to employ to ensure that they don't try to do something beyond their capability and to ensure their safety.

 

[Alex]

CRoW is just another tool in the box for negotiations, we should not immediately assume gates, permits etc will be removed instantly.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I can understand why in some circumstances it would be wise to limit access and provide leaders for caves that have specific risks. Such access conditions in these circumstances would most likely be due to the concerns of third parties, not necessarily cavers.

I suggest we put barbed wire fences around the bottom of certain selected difficult climbing routes and then have a system of guides which climbers are compelled to employ to ensure that they don't try to do something beyond their capability and to ensure their safety.

I won't expand further with specific examples. I was making a serious point. I can think of a few places where what I stated is the case. Anyone with a few years of caving under their belt ought to be able to come up with at least one. To make it easier, think of places where an owner, not wanting his "guests" to come to harm has insisted on cavers making sure those who enter a cave are properly equipped, have some experience, and in some circumstances are led.

My conclusion is that cavers determined to follow an idealistic approach to the activity cause problems for the rest of us. Those who take a more pragmatic approach tend to sort things out for the overall benefit of the rest.

 

[Bottlebank]

My conclusion is that cavers determined to follow an idealistic approach to the activity cause problems for the rest of us. Those who take a more pragmatic approach tend to sort things out for the overall benefit of the rest.

Agreed, and anyone who sees caving as just a sport does the same and needs a rethink as well, it's much more than that.

 

[Badlad]

Caving is a way of life for some, just an occasional activity for others.

 

[Peter Burgess]

That's true, and the occasional dabblers probably don't come here a great deal!